seamasred
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:49 am
Delivery Date: 11 Jan 2019

Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:03 am

I have seen somewhere that in addition to the motor power and battery capacity increase, that the Leaf Plus will have a faster charging rate. However, I thought the Chademo system was limited to 50 kW which is the max I have seen on a charger. In the press release, photos of the charging ports look like Chademo but I see no mention in the release of an increased charging rate?

Can someone either confirm the 50 kW inherent limit on Chademo or discuss what the limit is? And how does that interact with the new Leaf Plus.

It is disconcerting that the 1st Electrify America station I stopped at has 8 CCS chargers and only one Chademo. It looks like 15 CCS but there a two CCS plugs with different ratings and I think you can only use one at a time. The larger capacity plugs for CCS are 150 kW! Of course the lone Chademo is only 50 kW.

Oh well, Electrify America is a VW project.

Also pet peeve is why charge by minute instead of kW-hr? At a fixed cost per minute your resulting cost per kW-hr can be highly variable based on your battery capacity, charge level, temperature, and the vagaries of individual chargers. One EVgo charger says it is 40 kW and did pump out about 100 amps at about 400 V. Now I'm lucky to get an initial charging rate (with battery about 20%) of 85 amps.

WetEV
Posts: 2862
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:16 am

seamasred wrote:I have seen somewhere that in addition to the motor power and battery capacity increase, that the Leaf Plus will have a faster charging rate. However, I thought the Chademo system was limited to 50 kW which is the max I have seen on a charger. In the press release, photos of the charging ports look like Chademo but I see no mention in the release of an increased charging rate?


Current standard is 62.5kW. Just released standard is 400kW.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAdeMO

seamasred wrote:Oh well, Electrify America is a VW project.


Exactly.


seamasred wrote:Also pet peeve is why charge by minute instead of kW-hr? At a fixed cost per minute your resulting cost per kW-hr can be highly variable based on your battery capacity, charge level, temperature, and the vagaries of individual chargers. One EVgo charger says it is 40 kW and did pump out about 100 amps at about 400 V. Now I'm lucky to get an initial charging rate (with battery about 20%) of 85 amps.


Ah yes, consider someone with 99% battery and taking 400 W out of the DCQC, for 30 minutes... While preventing other at charging at 100 times or more that rate... I think maybe a rate that goes up as the kW goes down should be considered.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

JeffN
Posts: 157
Joined: Fri May 20, 2011 4:31 pm
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Location: San Francisco, CA

Re: Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:03 pm

The CHAdeMO specification has been updated since the original version which only provided for 125A or about 50 kW. The latest version allows for up to 400A. Actual EVs have their own internal limitations and they tell the charger how much power to provide. The existing LEAF models probably cannot charge at more than 125A but Nissan says the new e+ with the 62 kWh pack has a peak charging rate of near 100 kW.

Attaining 100 kW would require a new generation of CHAdeMO charging cables that are liquid-cooled and while they are in development they are not yet available from suppliers for use in charging equipment yet. The highest rate attainable today on new higher-powered chargers is 200A at about 70 kW.

The CHAdeMO cable at each Electrify America site is labeled (and perhaps limited in software) to 125A at 50 kW but the hardware is actually capable of 200A and EA has said they will lift the temporary 125A limit after further testing at some point.

I wrote an article about some of this recently:

https://electricrevs.com/2019/01/14/nis ... but-where/

GlennD
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Re: Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:47 pm

I read a review of the Audi EV and they were talking about going to water cooled cables for the higher currents. It seems that the normal cables can not hack it temperature wise.
:
2013 Pearl White SL Premium
Traded for a Cirrus White 2014 Mercedes B (totaled)
2016 Urano Gray eGolf SEL w/ drive assist
Loved the VW but it sat too low for my old body
Back to a Cirrus White 2017 B250e
White Ioniq limited.It sits just fine

LeftieBiker
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Re: Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:43 pm

There was a duplicate topic, so I moved posts from that one to this, the original topic. I deleted posts from me and from Cwerdna, but not anyone else's, other than a duplicate from the OP.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
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cwerdna
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Re: Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:56 pm

^^^
Yay!

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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
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Re: Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:11 am

* CHAdeMO is a dying standard in the USA
* EA has VERY little motivation to poor money into CHAdeMO, regardless
* HOT battery LEAFs will limit the charge rate anyway.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2862
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:08 am

SageBrush wrote:* CHAdeMO is a dying standard in the USA
* EA has VERY little motivation to poor money into CHAdeMO, regardless
* HOT battery LEAFs will limit the charge rate anyway.


CCS might take over, but there are big gaps in CCS , even planned EA locations. At least, near me.

EA must support CHAdeMO, as is a court settlement, but expect the absolute minimum.

LEAFs are best used within range of home. The E+ range 220 EPA, so figure a radius of 50 miles for No Worries Range. Trips with one charging stop are mostly unaffected by hot quick charging limitations. If you expect to drive 400 miles or more frequently, you probably don't want an E+. If your longest trip ever was from Marlboro, MA to Springfield, MA, you are unlikely to ever worry about hot quick charging limitations.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

SageBrush
Posts: 4041
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
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Location: Colorado

Re: Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:43 pm

WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:* CHAdeMO is a dying standard in the USA
* EA has VERY little motivation to poor money into CHAdeMO, regardless
* HOT battery LEAFs will limit the charge rate anyway.


CCS might take over, but there are big gaps in CCS , even planned EA locations. At least, near me.

EA must support CHAdeMO, as is a court settlement, but expect the absolute minimum.

LEAFs are best used within range of home. The E+ range 220 EPA, so figure a radius of 50 miles for No Worries Range. Trips with one charging stop are mostly unaffected by hot quick charging limitations. If you expect to drive 400 miles or more frequently, you probably don't want an E+. If your longest trip ever was from Marlboro, MA to Springfield, MA, you are unlikely to ever worry about hot quick charging limitations.

I tend to be more optimistic than you when calculating the 'No worries Range' unless the winter weather is terrible but 'one charge' is not a practical assumption: one charge to the destination, one charge back home. Once the battery is hot, it stays that way for the better part of a day.

And of course that is just the charging rate; the battery degradation is part and parcel of the LEAF ownership experience.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2862
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
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Re: Leaf Plus Charging Rate

Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:25 pm

SageBrush wrote:LEAFs are best used within range of home. The E+ range 220 EPA, so figure a radius of 50 miles for No Worries Range. Trips with one charging stop are mostly unaffected by hot quick charging limitations. If you expect to drive 400 miles or more frequently, you probably don't want an E+. If your longest trip ever was from Marlboro, MA to Springfield, MA, you are unlikely to ever worry about hot quick charging limitations.

I tend to be more optimistic than you when calculating the 'No worries Range' unless the winter weather is terrible[/quote]

That might be because I include an allowance for battery degradation. Even Tesla's can have that... Sure not as bad as the early LEAFs, but later LEAFs are not as bad. My almost 5 year old, almost 50k mile LEAF is only down 10%, near as I can tell.

SageBrush wrote: but 'one charge' is not a practical assumption: one charge to the destination, one charge back home.


I'm not understanding your statement. It is about 70 miles from Marlboro, MA to Springfield, MA. In the summer, with reasonable weather, is probably a no recharge needed trip.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

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