mkjayakumar
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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:31 am

I wouldn't mind if there system was reliable and I could COUNT ON IT when I need to extend my range further


Absolutely. What good is a free charger if it doesn't work?. So the issue here is reliability, and how can they get the reliability higher if they don't have a successful business model that pays for the upkeep of the chargers? If you need them working all the time, you need to pay for it. $1 an hour just doesn't cut it.

the problem with the price hike is that it will reinforce charge at home day to day and use public charging only when you have to. I'd like to see public charging utilized more for extending day to day activities, not just for once in a while jaunts out of town.


Which is perfectly fine. I eat at home daily and eat out when I am away from home and willing to pay 5 times for that privilege. I have no desire to skip charging at home and sit at charging stations for hours, even those guys paid me money.

Look, Leaf is a city car whatever said and done. Even if the QC speeds increase, it is still a city/errand car, and you should never plan your daily trips around these chargers. Maybe an occasional, 'O shucks, I need to get this errand done now and am so far from home' situation.
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JPWhite
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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:44 am

mkjayakumar wrote:
I have no desire to skip charging at home and sit at charging stations for hours, even those guys paid me money.
.


Me neither. I never skip charging at home, but sometimes my schedule around town warrants a top off. Make it inexpensive and the car will meet all my needs, make it expensive and I'll think twice about that errand run or may take the Altima if I have to do 100 miles zipping around town to different meetings.

I have no issue paying a decent amount for a quick charge, it is analogous to filling up with gas, one is willing to pay for the speed and convenience. L2 charging isn't fast so my willingness to pay over the odds is much less.
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drees
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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Sat Sep 06, 2014 11:43 pm

mkjayakumar wrote:I am quite disappointed at those who complain the new higher pricing structure. Given that 90%+ of our charging happens at home at low prices, why would this occasional, convenience charging at a higher - gasoline equivalent - prices are such a burden ?

There actually is a good reason to avoid charging the current rates - namely that it basically creates a very large disincentive for PHEVs to use them as the cost is significantly more than driving on gas. And I think we all agree that more EV miles in a PHEV is a good thing in general.

Assuming that gas costs $4/gallon (might be high or low depending on where you live and if you need 91 octane or 87), let's look at the maximum cost of electricity for 3 popular PHEVs before electricity is more expensive than gas.

Volt: 37 mpg = 10.8c / mile
Fusion: 38 mpg = 10.5 c / mile
Prius: 50 mpg = 8.0 c / mile

And to match that cost using electricity:

Volt: 350 Wh / mi = 30.8c / kWh
Fusion: 370 Wh / mi = 28.4c / kWh
Prius: 290 Wh / mi = 27.6c / kWh

So basically 30c / kWh is about the most you can expect people to pay in a PHEV to plug in. With the new rates around 2x more than that, it's pretty clear that Blink has given up all their PHEV business except for the owners who really don't mind paying significantly more to drive on electricity.

mkjayakumar wrote:Flip this over and imagine a situation where gasoline is pumped to your car in your garage overnight for $0.70/gallon and you only pay $3.50 when you drive long distances. Would any of us complain about that?

As someone who doesn't often need to use public charging, the new rates don't bother me all that much. For for anyone who does need to use it regularly or any PHEV owners who are focused more on operating costs than the environment, they obviously lose big here.
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mkjayakumar
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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:52 am

I find it very amusing when I see PHEV owners sitting on a public charger for a few hours to save a few dollars over driving on gasoline. Even at the old Blink rates they perhaps save, what $5 an hour? That is less than minimum wage, and presumably for someone who could afford a PHEV that costs close to 30 grand.

I take it back.I don't find it amusing. I find that silly and stupid.

Public chargers are for people who have no other choice to get back home - for BEVs. The electricity didn't magically appear in the plugs. It takes a lot of capital costs and operational costs to make that happen, just like the Starbucks at your ski resort paid through his nose to get a license to run his business, which in many cases is seasonal.
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abasile
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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:04 am

Slow1 wrote:All this discussion seems to further my opinion that the future of EV charging likely will be almost fully home based charging with well placed QC stations (that will have a cost likely near or above premium gas costs/mile) that can be used by those going on long road trips only.

I feel that public L2 charging will be highly relevant for the foreseeable future, particularly with more EVs on the road. L2 charging stations are far cheaper to deploy and operate than QCs and can therefore achieve much greater penetration. Given the choice between stopping and waiting for a QC along the way, versus L2 charging at a destination, it makes sense to choose the latter. Even if driving a Tesla cross-country on a Supercharger-enabled route, it is preferable to save time by charging overnight at each hotel/motel/campground if possible and skipping some of the Superchargers. This also helps where using Superchargers/QCs would otherwise require deviation from the ideal route.

And as others have mentioned, L2 will remain relevant for PHEVs for some time to come.

However, for L2 destination/opportunity charging to serve its purpose, it needs to be priced appropriately (when not simply given away as a perk). More expensive than home charging, but cheaper than gasoline for a Prius.
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TomT
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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Sun Sep 07, 2014 8:44 am

And it needs to be available AT the destination...

abasile wrote:However, for L2 destination/opportunity charging to serve its purpose, it needs to be priced appropriately (when not simply given away as a perk).
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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Sun Sep 07, 2014 9:37 am

If we woke up tomorrow and all vehicles were evs, and what used to be gas stations are now fast chargers, You could bet that charging rates would be higher than they were before this huge rate hike. If people are willing to pay what they do to get around in ICE vehicles, why would a business whose sole purpose is to make a profit for themselves charge anything less? Yeah, I suppose it might be a bit cheaper because of the higher upfront cost of evs.

Doesn't mean I have to like it. I like the way it was so much better.
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walterbays
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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Sun Sep 07, 2014 11:12 am

TomT wrote:
abasile wrote:However, for L2 destination/opportunity charging to serve its purpose, it needs to be priced appropriately (when not simply given away as a perk).
And it needs to be available AT the destination...

Yes. I'll walk a couple of blocks easily, and then L2 at destination is often preferable to QC. But even with as many L2 as have been built in Southern California it is exceedingly rare for me to find an L2 station at a destination which is available, not occupied by an oil burner, not occupied by another EV charging, not occupied by another EV not charging, and not broken. And now I also have to add, not extremely more expensive than QC. However almost always there is a QC reasonably convenient to my route which is available and not broken.

Not that we couldn't do with at least 2X the number of QC stations, but their real world utility seems many times that of L2 stations since they need only be a mile or two from a route, not a block or two from a destination.

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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:11 pm

I agree that L2 charging works best when is right at the destination. Workplaces, hotels, convention centers, fairgrounds, campgrounds, park visitor centers, downtown shopping areas, and other places where out-of-town visitors are likely to spend hours should be encouraged to install L2 charging. On the other hand, convenience stores, pharmacies, and fast food joints are not so ideal.
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Re: Blink changes billing model for public charging

Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:22 pm

drees wrote:There actually is a good reason to avoid charging the current rates - namely that it basically creates a very large disincentive for PHEVs to use them as the cost is significantly more than driving on gas. And I think we all agree that more EV miles in a PHEV is a good thing in general.

Assuming that gas costs $4/gallon (might be high or low depending on where you live and if you need 91 octane or 87), let's look at the maximum cost of electricity for 3 popular PHEVs before electricity is more expensive than gas.

Volt: 37 mpg = 10.8c / mile
Fusion: 38 mpg = 10.5 c / mile
Prius: 50 mpg = 8.0 c / mile

And to match that cost using electricity:

Volt: 350 Wh / mi = 30.8c / kWh
Fusion: 370 Wh / mi = 28.4c / kWh
Prius: 290 Wh / mi = 27.6c / kWh

So basically 30c / kWh is about the most you can expect people to pay in a PHEV to plug in. With the new rates around 2x more than that, it's pretty clear that Blink has given up all their PHEV business except for the owners who really don't mind paying significantly more to drive on electricity.

The cost/mile on gas is a bit lower than the numbers you give, assuming a halfway informed and intelligent owner (unlike the Volt owner I recently talked to who didn't know where the mode button was, let alone what it did), as they'll use hold mode for freeway cruising and use the battery around town (the PiP has issues here, but not the Volt or Energis), so they'll be getting their freeway not combined MPG. Agreed that $0.30/kWh is the max that you can charge, and realistically it needs to be more like $0.25/kWh
Last edited by GRA on Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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