SageBrush
Posts: 2602
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sun May 27, 2018 7:48 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Valdemar wrote:If not a defective batch then they must have knowingly signed up for 1 or potentially 2 warranty replacements in hotter areas. I just cannot believe they didn't have the data after the original 11/12 pack debacle. Who knows, perhaps they ran the numbers and between the lower battery manufacturing costs and EV credits they still come out ahead overall, and it was simply a business decision.

Remember that this is a world-wide decision on their part. We are not hearing about battery failures in Europe or Japan so Nissan has probably decided to just bear the warranty costs. That is much cheaper than issuing a recall to replace defective batteries. First, it spreads the costs out over a longer period. Second, only obvious failures will be replaced so marginal batteries will remain in service. Third, you still have to go through the warranty process which will deter some and some procrastinators will time out on the warranty.

Nissan doesn't seem to care about their reputation as an EV builder so I have to assume that the Leaf is ultimately just a compliance car built to allow Nissan to sell larger ICE vehicles like trucks and SUV's with much higher margins in the US. Leafs do well enough in Europe and Japan and maybe their plan is to cede the US market to Tesla and GM.


Yup. From the moment Nissan decided to sell the battery factory the writing was on the wall that the LEAF is a compliance car in the US. This is pretty obvious to anybody who is not blinded by fanboism.

Even our boy Ed cannot find the fortitude to defend the LEAF anymore. He just hangs around to throw out Tesla FUD.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2200
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Mon May 28, 2018 10:06 am

SageBrush wrote:Yup. From the moment Nissan decided to sell the battery factory the writing was on the wall that the LEAF is a compliance car in the US. This is pretty obvious to anybody who is not blinded by fanboism.


The world's best selling electric car is a limited production, limited volume, only produced to meet requirements "compliance car"?

Trolling, eh?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

johnlocke
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue May 29, 2018 3:16 pm

WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Yup. From the moment Nissan decided to sell the battery factory the writing was on the wall that the LEAF is a compliance car in the US. This is pretty obvious to anybody who is not blinded by fanboism.


The world's best selling electric car is a limited production, limited volume, only produced to meet requirements "compliance car"?

Trolling, eh?

The Leaf is a Compliance Car for the US. For the rest of the world it's a production car with limited range. It's being sold here only because Nissan has to meet compliance rules to sell the ICE stuff. If Nissan was serious about PEV in the US, it would be working to correct the idea that the Leaf is a disposable car that has very low resale value. It wouldn't end up every year having blowout sales trying to move Leaf inventory. Those huge end of year discounts are the giveaway that It's a compliance vehicle. When you have to sell a given number to meet compliance rules, you end up practically giving them away at the end of the year.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

SageBrush
Posts: 2602
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Location: Colorado

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue May 29, 2018 4:30 pm

johnlocke wrote: The Leaf is a Compliance Car for the US. For the rest of the world it's a production car with limited range.

Yup.

Although why that should be true is open to conjecture. Some thoughts --
    US drivers demand more range
    The US is overall too hot a climate for this car
    Europe has a better developed DCFC infrastructure to mitigate the LEAF range
    The LEAF is living on borrowed time until Model 3 reaches Europe
    Nissan kept its UK battery plant but sold its US plant

It's probably also worth pointing out that "Europe" when it comes to the Nissan LEAF is heavily weighted towards cold climate Norway
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
Posts: 2200
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue May 29, 2018 9:39 pm

johnlocke wrote:The Leaf is a Compliance Car for the US.


Meaning it isn't a Tesla, eh?

Compliance cars are only sold in CARB states, and perhaps only California.

Leaf is sold in 50 states. I can't buy a compliance car without a trip to at least Oregon or more likely California.


johnlocke wrote:It wouldn't end up every year having blowout sales trying to move Leaf inventory. Those huge end of year discounts are the giveaway that It's a compliance vehicle. When you have to sell a given number to meet compliance rules, you end up practically giving them away at the end of the year.


Nissan sells almost all their cars at a discount. KBB for example shows the 2018 Nissan Maxima SV as having MSRP of $35,905 and a "fair purchase price" $33,517.

Even the GT-R. The GT-R 2017 "Premium" has a MSRP of $111,685 and a "Fair market range" of $95,241 - $103,456. Not enough sales of the GT-R 2018 to give a range.

The Leaf is no different. The discount will vary from month to month, just like the other Nissan cars.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

johnlocke
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Wed May 30, 2018 12:24 pm

WetEV wrote:
johnlocke wrote:The Leaf is a Compliance Car for the US.


Meaning it isn't a Tesla, eh?

Compliance cars are only sold in CARB states, and perhaps only California.

Leaf is sold in 50 states. I can't buy a compliance car without a trip to at least Oregon or more likely California.


johnlocke wrote:It wouldn't end up every year having blowout sales trying to move Leaf inventory. Those huge end of year discounts are the giveaway that It's a compliance vehicle. When you have to sell a given number to meet compliance rules, you end up practically giving them away at the end of the year.


Nissan sells almost all their cars at a discount. KBB for example shows the 2018 Nissan Maxima SV as having MSRP of $35,905 and a "fair purchase price" $33,517.

Even the GT-R. The GT-R 2017 "Premium" has a MSRP of $111,685 and a "Fair market range" of $95,241 - $103,456. Not enough sales of the GT-R 2018 to give a range.

The Leaf is no different. The discount will vary from month to month, just like the other Nissan cars.

It's still a compliance car. The fact that Nissan offers it in all fifty states doesn't change the fact that California requires manufacturers to meet certain MPG goals fleet-wide and the Leaf is Nissan's answer to that. Almost all new cars get sold at a discount from MSRP but the Leaf at year end gets truly massive discounts. It's possible to sometimes buy a brand new Leaf for as little as $12,000 after all the discounts and tax credits. California and Colorado have had $10,000 utility company credits available from time to time plus $4000 Nissan cash and $500 loyalty cash. Plus the $7500 federal tax credit and a $2500 California tax credit. That's in addition to whatever dealer discounts you can beat out of them. That's far and away more than you would ever see on that Maxima.

Nissan takes advantage of all those discounts and credits to move Leafs. That improves their fleet MPG numbers and allows them to sell lots of trucks and SUVs with much better profit margins. I doubt that they ever make any profit on a Leaf. That's why they don't care whether the battery is crap in an otherwise very nice little car. If they get sold and then thrown away that's just another potential sale down the road.

The situation in Europe is different because the batteries hold up better there and the demand for electrics is better due to high gas prices. Renault is very successful there with the ZOE and Nissan also sells the Leaf under the Nissan brand as well. It is interesting to note that the ZOE had a 40KWH battery over year sooner than the Leaf despite the powertrain and chassis being nearly identical on both cars. Nissan appears to be more interested in the European market for electrics than in the US market. Nissan is simply not as interested in the US market as they are in the Japanese and European markets.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

WetEV
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Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Wed May 30, 2018 7:52 pm

johnlocke wrote:It's still a compliance car.


Then you have a new definition of compliance car. What other words have you redefined?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

webeleafowners
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
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Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Wed May 30, 2018 8:09 pm

Curious. So in Canada we probably have a climate similar to Europe. Are we also expected to have less problems? Our 2016 SV was built in April 2016. I can’t say we have noticed much range loss yet. It’s actually been flawless, like freakin flawless.

I never thought I would be a compliance car fan. Guess I am. ;).
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

johnlocke
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Thu May 31, 2018 7:26 am

WetEV wrote:
johnlocke wrote:It's still a compliance car.


Then you have a new definition of compliance car. What other words have you redefined?

You didn't reply to my arguments, just suggested I'm lying somehow. Sad
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

WetEV
Posts: 2200
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Thu May 31, 2018 8:37 am

johnlocke wrote:
WetEV wrote:
johnlocke wrote:It's still a compliance car.


Then you have a new definition of compliance car. What other words have you redefined?

You didn't reply to my arguments, just suggested I'm lying somehow. Sad


Just like you don't bother to reply to my arguments. Pot, meet kettle.

A compliance car is sold only to meet regulatory requirements. As such is sold in CARB states only at best, and California at worst.
The Leaf isn't a compliance car, as is sold in all 50 states and many foreign countries.

A compliance car is sold only in the numbers needed to meet regulatory requirements.
The Leaf has the world record for the most electric car sold in history, far more than regulatory requirements.

A compliance car is sold at a loss.
The Leaf is profitable, according to Nissan's statements.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

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