GregH
Posts: 851
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 26967
Location: Irvine, CA

Capacity vs Hx (Health)

Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:02 pm

I should put both of those in quotes.. by "capacity" I mean the Ah capacity we discovered in the Group 1 active CAN data on line 6.. 3rd, 4th and 5th bytes. Displayed on the LeafDD page 2 "C" and at the top of the ELM voltages page. By "health" I mean a 16 bit number I've been playing with... ("H" on the LeafDD page 2) Also in Group 1 active data but on line 5 on the 3rd and 4th bytes. Like the Ah capacity, this seems to track fairly well with actual usable capacity only this seems to be in the form of a percentage of original capacity.

This may end up being a more useful indicator of actual capacity (and possibly the number used to display the capacity bars.. which of course factors into the warranty). What I find interesting is that on the two 2013 cars I've tested so far the health percentage was over 110!! Could it be the bar of expectations has been lowered on the 2013s so they have to dip a little lower before the warranty kicks in? Will this number change if we update the software on the 2011/12 cars as Nissan intends us to do? Perhaps we could display this in the ELM software as well and get more readings. We'll have a dozen or so new LeafDD users by this time next week as well.

Here is some data from other cars (some 2013s) as well as multiple readings from my car..

Cap vs health
Other cars
2013A 67.3620 111.58%
2013B 67.3620 115.86%
Jim 62.0904 93.45%
Gary 61.9985 93.27%
Robert 61.2179 91.81%
Luke 49.3443 68.56%

My car
Early 67.5680 104.46%
Early 67.5680 104.73%
??? 66.0198 100.79%
??? 65.1211 99.11%
??? 65.1342 99.14%
??? 63.5532 96.18%
??? 63.5860 96.24%
6/02 63.0022 95.15%
6/11 62.8316 94.78%
Last edited by GregH on Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'17 blue Volt Premier w/ACC
'12 SL black Leaf
'11 SL blue Leaf
RAV4-EV 2002-2005
Gen1 & Gen2 EV1 1997-2003
PV 2.4Kw, 10kWh lithium battery SCE TOU-DA

User avatar
Stanton
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1860
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:56 am
Delivery Date: 01 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 7458
Location: Plano, TX
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Capacity vs Health

Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:26 pm

GregH wrote:What I find interesting is that on the two 2013 cars I've tested so far the health percentage was over 110!! Could it be the bar of expectations has been lowered on the 2013s so they have to dip a little lower before the warranty kicks in? Will this number change if we update the software on the 2011/12 cars as Nissan intends us to do?

I have to admit that thought has crossed my mind and it scares the hell out of me...

GregH wrote:Perhaps we could display this in the ELM software as well and get more readings. We'll have a dozen or so new LeafDD users by this time next week as well.

Here's hoping I'm one of those LeafDD users!
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

Stoaty
Gold Member
Posts: 4428
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Capacity vs Health

Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:55 pm

GregH wrote:I should put both of those in quotes.. by "capacity" I mean the Ah capacity we discovered in the Group 1 active CAN data on line 6.. 3rd, 4th and 5th bytes. Displayed on the LeafDD page 2 "C" and at the top of the ELM voltages page. By "health" I mean a 16 bit number I've been playing with... ("H" on the LeafDD page 2) Also in Group 1 active data but on line 5 on the 3rd and 4th bytes. Like the Ah capacity, this seems to track fairly well with actual usable capacity only this seems to be in the form of a percentage of original capacity.

This may end up being a more useful indicator of actual capacity (and possibly the number used to display the capacity bars.. which of course factors into the warranty). What I find interesting is that on the two 2013 cars I've tested so far the health percentage was over 110!! Could it be the bar of expectations has been lowered on the 2013s so they have to dip a little lower before the warranty kicks in? Will this number change if we update the software on the 2011/12 cars as Nissan intends us to do?

Very interesting information, but remember that even Gids under-predicted range in the Arizona range test. For cars with a Gid Percentage under 90% on full charge, the average difference between range predicted by Gids and actual range was 11.9%. For example, based on the linear regression line a car with 75% Gids on full charge got 85% of the range of a new Leaf.

wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Range_Test_on_Cars_with_Battery_Capacity_Loss

My wild guess is that the new formula put a new Leaf at 110% plus so that:

1) They could retain backward compatibility with the rest of the software AND
2) When the capacity starts degrading the gauge will more accurately show the remaining capacity.
Lifetime 5.5 m/kWh (Dash) over 57,200 miles / 67 months
Capacity Loss Predicted - 27.4% Actual - 30.1%
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet

adspguy
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:12 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Apr 2012
Leaf Number: 018978
Location: Newton, MA

Re: Capacity vs Health

Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:01 am

Here is some data from my 2012 leaf with approx 12K miles. I took this data with a wifi clone elm device talking to my iphone. Pair delta is difference between highest cellpair and lowest. max t is the highest of 4 temps.

I've been surprised at the variation of the the CAP value.

Date, SOC, CAP, HEALTH, KWnom, pair delta, maxt
4/27/13, 76.9365, 65.7312, 100.19, 18.2057, 30, 13
5/2/13, 60.9825, 66.3872, 101.57, 14.5744, 20, 21
5/3/13, 74.2031, 66.5184, 101.78, 17.7691, 22, 16
5/6/13, 73.8305, 66.4790, 101.67, 17.6694, 27, 14
5/7/13, 78.3671, 66.3216, 101.36, 18.7108, 23, 18
5/9/13, 78.9369, 66.2363, 101.19, 18.8226, 21, 18
5/9/13, 71.1871, 66.4134, 101.52, 17.0200, 21, 18
5/10/13, 81.8851, 66.8004, 102.35, 19.6918, 26, 20
5/13/1, 78.2961, 66.4396, 101.57, 18.7271, 27, 17
5/14/13, 70.6824, 66.4790, 101.78, 16.9160, 17, 15
5/16/13, 92.7587, 66.8595, 102.35, 22.3265, 21, 16
5/19/13, 76.9518, 66.7873, 102.34, 18.5019, 31, 19
5/20/13, 90.3895, 67.0563, 102.72, 21.8203, 21, 17
5/20/13, 65.5228, 67.0563, 102.89, 15.8174, 21, 22
5/20/13, 64.4883, 67.1481, 102.89, 15.5890, 21, 24
5/20/13, 39.8447, 67.0366, 101.77, 9.6158, 20, 27
5/22/13, 72.0988, 66.3084, 101.35, 17.2107, 21, 17
5/23/13, 68.8397, 66.2166, 101.07, 16.4100, 26, 23
5/23/13, 61.4825, 66.1379, 100.99, 14.6388, 20, 23
5/24/13, 78.4341, 66.2428, 101.18, 18.7045, 31, 21
5/27/13, 77.4607, 66.2428, 101.07, 18.4724, 27, 16
5/29/13, 78.2033, 66.2953, 101.33, 18.6642, 28, 20
5/30/13, 80.2422, 66.4331, 101.57, 19.1907, 27, 22
5/30/13, 79.3837, 66.4396, 101.57, 18.9872, 23, 25
5/31/13, 79.3872, 65.7377, 100.26, 18.7874, 22, 22
5/31/13, 78.1753, 65.5868, 99.87, 18.4582, 31, 26
6/3/13, 76.2771, 64.7865, 98.54, 17.7902, 32, 22
6/3/13, 72.4685, 64.9243, 98.82, 16.9379, 25, 23
6/4/13, 90.5800, 64.9636, 98.82, 21.1839, 21, 21
6/4/13, 84.2846, 65.0752, 99.01, 19.7454, 21, 19
6/5/13, 76.2326, 65.1276, 99.19, 17.8734, 30, 18
6/5/13, 56.1890, 65.5672, 100.03, 13.2630, 24, 22
6/5/13, 47.6342, 65.6000, 100.04, 11.2493, 20, 23
6/6/13, 70.5646, 65.5540, 100.05, 16.6529, 26, 21
6/6/13, 79.0188, 65.7574, 100.30, 18.7059, 28, 23
6/6/13, 77.9348, 65.8033, 100.45, 18.4621, 35, 23
6/7/13, 76.9895, 65.8296, 100.67, 18.2455, 27, 20
6/7/13, 66.7311, 65.9542, 100.77, 15.8443, 20, 20
6/8/13, 63.8094, 66.4856, 101.66, 15.2727, 21, 18

GregH
Posts: 851
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 26967
Location: Irvine, CA

Re: Capacity vs Health

Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:42 am

adspguy wrote:Here is some data from my 2012 leaf with approx 12K miles. I took this data with a wifi clone elm device talking to my iphone. Pair delta is difference between highest cellpair and lowest. max t is the highest of 4 temps.

I've been surprised at the variation of the the CAP value.

Date, SOC, CAP, HEALTH, KWnom, pair delta, maxt
4/27/13, 76.9365, 65.7312, 100.19, 18.2057, 30, 13
5/2/13, 60.9825, 66.3872, 101.57, 14.5744, 20, 21
5/3/13, 74.2031, 66.5184, 101.78, 17.7691, 22, 16
5/6/13, 73.8305, 66.4790, 101.67, 17.6694, 27, 14
5/7/13, 78.3671, 66.3216, 101.36, 18.7108, 23, 18
5/9/13, 78.9369, 66.2363, 101.19, 18.8226, 21, 18
5/9/13, 71.1871, 66.4134, 101.52, 17.0200, 21, 18
5/10/13, 81.8851, 66.8004, 102.35, 19.6918, 26, 20
5/13/1, 78.2961, 66.4396, 101.57, 18.7271, 27, 17
5/14/13, 70.6824, 66.4790, 101.78, 16.9160, 17, 15
5/16/13, 92.7587, 66.8595, 102.35, 22.3265, 21, 16
5/19/13, 76.9518, 66.7873, 102.34, 18.5019, 31, 19
5/20/13, 90.3895, 67.0563, 102.72, 21.8203, 21, 17
5/20/13, 65.5228, 67.0563, 102.89, 15.8174, 21, 22
5/20/13, 64.4883, 67.1481, 102.89, 15.5890, 21, 24
5/20/13, 39.8447, 67.0366, 101.77, 9.6158, 20, 27
5/22/13, 72.0988, 66.3084, 101.35, 17.2107, 21, 17
5/23/13, 68.8397, 66.2166, 101.07, 16.4100, 26, 23
5/23/13, 61.4825, 66.1379, 100.99, 14.6388, 20, 23
5/24/13, 78.4341, 66.2428, 101.18, 18.7045, 31, 21
5/27/13, 77.4607, 66.2428, 101.07, 18.4724, 27, 16
5/29/13, 78.2033, 66.2953, 101.33, 18.6642, 28, 20
5/30/13, 80.2422, 66.4331, 101.57, 19.1907, 27, 22
5/30/13, 79.3837, 66.4396, 101.57, 18.9872, 23, 25
5/31/13, 79.3872, 65.7377, 100.26, 18.7874, 22, 22
5/31/13, 78.1753, 65.5868, 99.87, 18.4582, 31, 26
6/3/13, 76.2771, 64.7865, 98.54, 17.7902, 32, 22
6/3/13, 72.4685, 64.9243, 98.82, 16.9379, 25, 23
6/4/13, 90.5800, 64.9636, 98.82, 21.1839, 21, 21
6/4/13, 84.2846, 65.0752, 99.01, 19.7454, 21, 19
6/5/13, 76.2326, 65.1276, 99.19, 17.8734, 30, 18
6/5/13, 56.1890, 65.5672, 100.03, 13.2630, 24, 22
6/5/13, 47.6342, 65.6000, 100.04, 11.2493, 20, 23
6/6/13, 70.5646, 65.5540, 100.05, 16.6529, 26, 21
6/6/13, 79.0188, 65.7574, 100.30, 18.7059, 28, 23
6/6/13, 77.9348, 65.8033, 100.45, 18.4621, 35, 23
6/7/13, 76.9895, 65.8296, 100.67, 18.2455, 27, 20
6/7/13, 66.7311, 65.9542, 100.77, 15.8443, 20, 20
6/8/13, 63.8094, 66.4856, 101.66, 15.2727, 21, 18


Great data set thanks! When/how often do you see the Ah CAP and Health numbers get updated? In this data it looks like there are times when CAP changes but Health does not, and other times when Health does but CAP does not.. Mostly it looks like they're both changing a lot more frequently then I would have expected...
'17 blue Volt Premier w/ACC
'12 SL black Leaf
'11 SL blue Leaf
RAV4-EV 2002-2005
Gen1 & Gen2 EV1 1997-2003
PV 2.4Kw, 10kWh lithium battery SCE TOU-DA

adspguy
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:12 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Apr 2012
Leaf Number: 018978
Location: Newton, MA

Re: Capacity vs Health

Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:47 am

GregH wrote:Great data set thanks! When/how often do you see the Ah CAP and Health numbers get updated? In this data it looks like there are times when CAP changes but Health does not, and other times when Health does but CAP does not.. Mostly it looks like they're both changing a lot more frequently then I would have expected...

I get the data when I feel inspired and have a moment. Often this relates to when I am stuck waiting in the car for my kids when I pick them up. It is a bit of a manual effort to get the data. I've been keeping the raw data from the elm device for all the 210x groups, and using a c program I wrote to generate a report from raw data. I was most curious about if there was a relationship between max cell pair delta and CAP etc. When I saw your "health" post last night I added it and re-ran the program. I have more data that hasn't been entered since I only download it once in a while.

It is great that you have been able to figure out the meanings of the various data fields, I have all the raw data for when you figure out more or to maybe help. The cap doesn't seem to directly track either the max temp or max cell pair delta. I have found that after 100% charging it does seem to improve the cap some short time after and also the max cell pair delta.

I'd be happy to share more data with you, let me know.

My end plan is to try to make an iphone app like the android leafbattery app.

adspguy
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:12 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Apr 2012
Leaf Number: 018978
Location: Newton, MA

Re: Capacity vs Health

Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:36 pm

here is another group

Date, SOC, CAP, HEALTH, pair delta, maxt
6/8/13, 63.8094, 66.4856, 101.66, 21, 18
6/10/13, 76.1225, 66.5971, 101.9, 28, 17
6/10/13, 64.6072, 66.5971, 101.88, 18, 20
6/10/13, 84.6918, 66.866, 102.37, 17, 19
6/11/13, 75.3436, 67.0169, 102.6, 25, 19
6/11/13, 23.9343, 67.3384, 103.4, 22, 23
6/12/13, 78.7696, 67.4171, 103.36, 28, 20

this one with new record high CAP and Health numbers

GregH
Posts: 851
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 26967
Location: Irvine, CA

Re: Capacity vs Health

Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:12 pm

adspguy wrote:here is another group

Date, SOC, CAP, HEALTH, pair delta, maxt
6/8/13, 63.8094, 66.4856, 101.66, 21, 18
6/10/13, 76.1225, 66.5971, 101.9, 28, 17
6/10/13, 64.6072, 66.5971, 101.88, 18, 20
6/10/13, 84.6918, 66.866, 102.37, 17, 19
6/11/13, 75.3436, 67.0169, 102.6, 25, 19
6/11/13, 23.9343, 67.3384, 103.4, 22, 23
6/12/13, 78.7696, 67.4171, 103.36, 28, 20

this one with new record high CAP and Health numbers


Wow.. Nice to see the numbers going UP for a change! What's the occasion? Any idea why it dipped a few weeks ago then surges in the last few days? Ambient temps? Deeper or shallower discharges? Partial or full charges? Interesting. An iPhone app would be cool.. I'd try it. Although I already have the Dash Display ;)
'17 blue Volt Premier w/ACC
'12 SL black Leaf
'11 SL blue Leaf
RAV4-EV 2002-2005
Gen1 & Gen2 EV1 1997-2003
PV 2.4Kw, 10kWh lithium battery SCE TOU-DA

adspguy
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:12 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Apr 2012
Leaf Number: 018978
Location: Newton, MA

Re: Capacity vs Health

Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:15 pm

Cap doesn't seem to follow temp or pair delta directly. The right axis is both temp in C and pair delta mV
Image

Cap vs health:
Image

These are plots of the previously posted data values

I usually charge to 80% but charged to 100% on index values 12,14,30 and 44

User avatar
garygid
Gold Member
Posts: 12403
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 am
Delivery Date: 29 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000855
Location: Laguna Hills, Orange Co, CA

Re: Capacity vs Health

Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:41 am

So, other than being scaled differently, the CAP and Health
seem to be basically the same thing, right?

What is the scale factor?
Is it a constant?
Perhaps the scale factor changes with... age?
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2011 LEAF, sold in 2015
2010 Prius, 2014 silver Tesla S
Nissan EVSE, mod to 240/120v 16A
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
To Sell: X-treme 5000Li EV motorcycle

Return to “LEAF CANBus”