Success! 100% to Turtle run complete

Very pleased to know that my 'lower Ahr capacity battery' of 59.69 actually gave me
21.51 usable KwHr from 100% to Turtle, based on the 4.3 average Miles per Kwh during this
range test. Didn't want to just run it on a flat freeway 40 miles out and 40 miles back at a constant speed.
This test included my normal commute to and from work, along with some errands, so it was a real world driving range test for me. 26 miles first day, 29 the second, and then running out the last 37 miles to Turtle by heading to work on a Saturday, a non working day for me, and then circling the charging location during the last 9 miles after hitting VLBW. The last 9 miles was a similation which would have been the same as actually looking or heading for a place to charge the Leaf while in VLBW state. I definetly would've been off the freeway, and on the streets, during VLBW to save GIDS while heading to a Chargepoint. I am now confident in my Leaf, that when I hit VLBW, I'd be able to easily make it home if within 10-12 miles or so, and if not, will be able to make it to a Chargepoint while in VLBW state. BTW during this final range test, I ended up less than 1/4 mile from the Chargepoint when I finally entered Turtle mode.

Here are the numbers:

LeafSpy Data

Low Battery Warning 49 GIDS.....26.5% SOC......Car's SOC 18%
Very Low Battery Warning 25 GIDS.....16.4% SOC......Car's SOC 9% GOM went blank
Car's SOC% dissappeared at 15 GIDS.....11.1% SOC......Car's SOC ---- (last reading was 6%)
Turtle 5 GIDS..... 0.6% SOC......Car's SOC ----
---- (means it was blinking and blank)

Distance from LBW to VLBW 9 miles
Distance from VLBW to Turtle 14 miles

Low Battery Warning Batt Temp 65.1, Voltage min/avg/max = 3.643 3.655 3.665 (22mV)
Very Low Battery Warning Batt Temp 68.4, Voltage min/avg/max = 3.654 3.675 3.704 (50mV)
Turtle Batt Temp 73.9, Voltage min/avg/max = 2.980 3.034 3.102 (122mV)

Total miles 92.5
Average Miles per KwH 4.3
Calculated Usable kwH 21.51KwH

2013 Leaf S
Mileage 1309
MFG Date Aug 27, 2013
Drive off Sept 21, 2013

djjazzy said:

Distance from VLBW to Turtle 14 miles

Click to expand...

That is actually quite disturbing to me that it still gave you 14 miles after VLBW. I mean, that is 14 miles it was essentially stealing from you by making you think you didn't have it available. Is this a battery calibration issue? I wonder if you did the test again if it would come out different. I know on MacBooks, for example, sometimes it will tell you that you have 10 minutes left on battery but then you just keep running and it runs for another hour or two before it finally shuts down. But, after you do that, it will re-calibrate and the next time you boot up the computer it will give you a more accurate estimate.

It's 14 miles vlbw to turtle at city speed. On the freeway it's a whole another ballgame. It's more like 6 real miles before turtle.

I'm jealous, my model year 11 won't come close to those numbers.

What was your average speed and what was your top speed each day and for about how many miles?

adric22 said:

djjazzy said:

Distance from VLBW to Turtle 14 miles

Click to expand...

That is actually quite disturbing to me that it still gave you 14 miles after VLBW. I mean, that is 14 miles it was essentially stealing from you by making you think you didn't have it available. Is this a battery calibration issue? I wonder if you did the test again if it would come out different. I know on MacBooks, for example, sometimes it will tell you that you have 10 minutes left on battery but then you just keep running and it runs for another hour or two before it finally shuts down. But, after you do that, it will re-calibrate and the next time you boot up the computer it will give you a more accurate estimate.

Click to expand...

This is something about the 2013 LEAFs that stjohnh and I have been commenting on for some time in this thread, in an attempt to raise awareness of this characteristic of the 2013 cars. And this is also the reason that we've been advocating that owners take their cars down to Turtle at least once while watching instruments such as the LEAF Spy all so that they will have the experience, and thereby the confidence, to use the car's true range capability: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13776" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The 2013 LEAF, or from what we can tell, at least those made in May of this year or later, seem to show low Amp Hour readings on the LEAF Spy app or the LEAF DD, but the cars seem to have at least the driving range of the 2011 and 2012 LEAFs. But as you say, some of the available range is shifted to the low end of the state of charge scale, and the usually reliable GID readings become less linear at the low end of the SOC, seemingly containing more energy as the SOC drops. And as you also say, this particular battery and instrument calibration can lead the new driver to use less of the available range than the car is actually capable of.

From what we've seen, this is not a transient calibration or one that will correct itself with a few charge/discharge cycles.

Thanks for the carefully detailed information!

djjazzy said:

Very Low Battery Warning 25 GIDS.....16.4% SOC......Car's SOC 9% GOM went blank

Click to expand...

Since you have an S model, what is your definition of VLBW? Did you get any audio signal like the beep at LBW? Any pop-up display on the "Trip computer" display like occurred at LBW? Any changes in what warning lights were on? Indeed any indication at all other than the GOM going to three bars?

I guess what I am suggesting is that the GOM may have been reprogrammed for 2013, and may not be "giving up" at the same point in time as it did in 2011 and 2012. I've probably missed similar detailed reports for 2013 SV or SL models, which presumably have an audio message at VLBW, and quite likely automatic changes in what is displayed on the center console. Do we know that the GOM drops to three bars at the same time as those quite specific VLBW indications? And what does LEAF Spy's SOC and GIDs say then?

Ray

djjazzy said:

Very pleased to know that my 'lower Ahr capacity battery' of 59.69 actually gave me
21.51 usable KwHr from 100% to Turtle, based on the 4.3 average Miles per Kwh during this
range test...

Click to expand...

I'd suggest anyone attempting to use the dash or nav screen m/kWh to calculate available batter capacity also check their "gauges" for accuracy against the verified values on constant-speed tests from:

http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/fact2011nissanleaf.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actual tested m/kWh results:

Sublime

From the battery (from the wall):
45mph = 4.85mi/kWh (3.94mi/kWh)
60mph = 3.70mi/kWh (3.04mi/kWh)
70mph = 2.92mi/kWh (2.48mi/kWh)

Click to expand...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13265" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

These are for a 2011 LEAF, so you may well notice a slight improvement in your 2013.

Find a level road and try to match all test conditions (including both air and battery temps!) as best you can, and try to test as large a percentage of your total available capacity as is practicable.

As you are in the bay area, a 60 or 70 mph low traffic period (weekend) drive east on I-80 would be my suggestion.

edatoakrun said:

djjazzy said:

Very pleased to know that my 'lower Ahr capacity battery' of 59.69 actually gave me
21.51 usable KwHr from 100% to Turtle, based on the 4.3 average Miles per Kwh during this
range test...

Click to expand...

I'd suggest anyone attempting to use the dash or nav screen m/kWh to calculate available batter capacity also check their "gauges" for accuracy against the verified values on constant-speed tests from:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13265" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Click to expand...

Great news, and very much in line with all the data compiled over the past several years for a new condition battery at 70F or greater!!! A government funded study showed the LEAF could store 21.381kWh for a new condition LEAF (referenced below). I will guess that your Gids were above 275 and the battery was not cold. Could you confirm that?

As to Ed's recommendations, first let me explain that he tends to flock to bad data like a moth to a light bulb. Surprisingly, he hasn't told you to rush to CarWings as is his normal process, however the study that he linked is one that was flawed from the beginning with a degraded battery LEAF. Check out the actual link he posted and read our posts. He also claims his own car has no degradation, which of course is just standard head-in-the-sand nuttiness.

Think of the Energizer bunny bumping into a wall, and just doing it over and over and over and over and over. Getting range and battery data coaching from him is not only bad advice, just watch the crap storm that happens from him when I point out his constant, ongoing and numerous failings. This is where he will step in and attack me and anybody else who doesn't agree with him. Let me yawn in advance.

If you want a really good study, check out:

LEAF battery capacities

Energy from the wall from dead to 100%: 25.414 kWh
Energy from the onboard charger to battery: 22.031 kWh (86.6% charger efficiency)
Energy from the battery during discharge: 21.381 kWh (our 21kWh useable at 70F)

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2012/veh_sys_sim/vss030_lohsebusch_2012_o.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2012/adv_power_electronics/ape006_burress_2012_p.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


New 70F/20C fully charged new condition battery
12 Fuel bars segments showing, each bar with about 1.5kWh - 1.8kWh:

--------------KWH-------Gid------SOC%
Rated capacity: --24 ------- 300 ---- 100
Max possible. : ---24 ------ 300 ----- 100
Stored energy: --22.5 ----- 281 ----- 95 (4.1v per cell, 393.5 volts)
Usable energy: --21.0 ----- 281 ----- 95 (4.1v per cell, 393.5 volts)
Depleted cutoff: --0.5 ------ 4-ish---- 2 (zero fuel bars remaining, 300v)


70F/20C fully charged, 50% degraded battery
12 Fuel bars showing, each bar with about 0.75kWh - 0.9kWh:

--------------KWH-------Gid------SOC%
Rated capacity: --24 ------- 300 ---- (not possible)
Max possible. : -- 12 ------ 150 ----- 100%
Stored energy: --11.2 ----- 140 ----- 95 (4.1v per cell, 393.5 volts)
Usable energy: --10.5 ----- 140 ----- 95 (4.1v per cell, 393.5 volts)
Depleted cutoff: --0.5 ------ 4-ish --- 2 (no fuel bars remaining, 300v)


A fully charged battery at 281 Gid, minus the 6-ish Gid remaining at Turtle leaves 275 Gid used multiplied by 77.45 per Gid = 21.3kWh (actually measured in a government test at room temperature). We see Nissan's programmed Gid adjustments in the winter as the Gid count actually goes UP, even though the battery capacity goes down with cold. The P3227 update tends to mitigate these errors.

planet4ever said:

Thanks for the carefully detailed information!

djjazzy said:

Very Low Battery Warning 25 GIDS.....16.4% SOC......Car's SOC 9% GOM went blank

Click to expand...

Since you have an S model, what is your definition of VLBW? Did you get any audio signal like the beep at LBW? Any pop-up display on the "Trip computer" display like occurred at LBW? Any changes in what warning lights were on? Indeed any indication at all other than the GOM going to three bars?

Ray

Click to expand...

From what I remember here is how it went. Car was in LBW, GOM miles were flashing, 'Gas' light was on.
The other dash indications were also lit. When I hit 25 GIDS.....16.4% SOC.....Car's SOC 9%, An audio 'beep' was heard, (just like when LBW activated) and the GOM went blank. That is when I hit VLBW. No other warning lights came on the Leaf S dash. Can't remember if the pop-up display on the "Trip computer" displayed " Very Low Battery Warning " or not. But it did when entering " Low Battery Warning " .

TonyWilliams said:

edatoakrun said:

djjazzy said:

Very pleased to know that my 'lower Ahr capacity battery' of 59.69 actually gave me
21.51 usable KwHr from 100% to Turtle, based on the 4.3 average Miles per Kwh during this
range test...

Click to expand...

I will guess that your Gids were above 275 and the battery was not cold. Could you confirm that?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Battery was not cold.
Here are the logged battery temps at LBW, VLBW and Turtle:

Low Battery Warning Batt Temp 65.1, Voltage min/avg/max = 3.643 3.655 3.665 (22mV)
Very Low Battery Warning Batt Temp 68.4, Voltage min/avg/max = 3.654 3.675 3.704 (50mV)
Turtle Batt Temp 73.9, Voltage min/avg/max = 2.980 3.034 3.102 (122mV)

djjazzy said:

Here are the logged battery temps at LBW, VLBW and Turtle:

Low Battery Warning Batt Temp 65.1, Voltage min/avg/max = 3.643 3.655 3.665 (22mV)
Very Low Battery Warning Batt Temp 68.4, Voltage min/avg/max = 3.654 3.675 3.704 (50mV)
Turtle Batt Temp 73.9, Voltage min/avg/max = 2.980 3.034 3.102 (122mV)

Click to expand...

You didn't record the Gid data?


http://youtu.be/hJudzKQftv4?t=2m14s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My S and SV show 262 and 263 gids at 100%, respectively.

WOW... not too good.. I wonder what Nissan is doing with either batteries or new FW/SW in the 13's/14's...

I was thinking at least in the 270 range..

JasonA said:

WOW... not too good.. I wonder what Nissan is doing with either batteries or new FW/SW in the 13's/14's...

I was thinking at least in the 270 range..

Click to expand...

If the not too good is referring to the 262-263 Gids on those new LEAFs, bear in mind that Gids 6-10 appear to represent two or three times the energy you would expect, at least for MY13s.

I don't understand your logic there..again GIDS are not linear and fall off fast on the top end of a peaked pack. The first 10-15 GIDS will drop like a rock but all I know is from talking with a bunch of 11/12 owners (and a few '13s).. I see where the pack health and SOC's have been coming in at..

Again, mine is over a year old (mfg July '12) and will charge to 261-265 on a good WARM day.. right now with cooler weather, 255-259 is avg on 100% (cooler temps and higher IR)

But again, and alot of people don't know this..... Lithium batteries are not their best when brand new.. THAT'S RIGHT! They like to be cycled properly and broken in so to speak.. You might see the highest AH come up after a few thou miles..

That is if you don't abuse it and turtle it out all the time...

But what do I know?? I only do this stuff for a living :lol:

JasonA said:

I don't understand your logic there

Click to expand...

No logic. Just the experience of going twice as far while Gids drop from 9 to 7 as I do while they go from 13 to 11.

Does this occur with MY12 and MY11 vehicles?

planet4ever said:

I've probably missed similar detailed reports for 2013 SV or SL models, which presumably have an audio message at VLBW, and quite likely automatic changes in what is displayed on the center console.

Click to expand...

Yes, '13 Leaf SV definitely has both audio warnings and messages on the center console LCD at LBW and VLBW.

Thanks for testing your car down to turtle and reporting your results! My 2011 SL also reports 59.60 AH of capacity. I think I will go out and drive it 93 miles at 4.3 mi/kWh!

djjazzy said:

Battery was not cold.
Here are the logged battery temps at LBW, VLBW and Turtle:

Low Battery Warning Batt Temp 65.1, Voltage min/avg/max = 3.643 3.655 3.665 (22mV)
Very Low Battery Warning Batt Temp 68.4, Voltage min/avg/max = 3.654 3.675 3.704 (50mV)
Turtle Batt Temp 73.9, Voltage min/avg/max = 2.980 3.034 3.102 (122mV)

Click to expand...

These voltages are somewhat meaningless since they must have been taken while you were driving the car. As a result, the load current (or the charge current) was moving around. (Note that the battery voltage at VLBW is higher than at LBW.)

What I find weird about this entire situation is that even though both of our cars *think* they have ~59.6 Ah of capacity, they report a *different* SOC when they reach LBW. And in the opposite direction than you would expect! Here's what I mean:

Ideal LEAF (with accurate instruments and assuming 80 Wh/GID):
Full capacity = 22,480 kWh (charge capacity or 21.5 kWh (discharge capacity) = 281 GIDs = 94% SOC
LBW capacity = 3.91 kWh = 49 GIDs = 17% SOC

djjazzy's LEAF:
Full capacity = ?, but LeafSpy reports battery capacity of 59.69 Ah = 94% SOC
LBW capacity = 3.91 kWh = 49 GIDs = 26% SOC

RegGuheert's LEAF:
Full capacity = ?, but LeafSpy reports battery capacity of 59.60 Ah = 94% SOC
LBW capacity = 3.91 kWh = 49 GIDs = ~19% SOC

The point is that my LEAF reports an SOC at LBW that would be appropriate for a new LEAF with full battery capacity, but djjazzy's LEAF reports a SOC at LBW that would be associated with a much lower capacity, even though his LEAF apparently has full capacity and range. Since LEAF has lost about 10% of it's battery capacity, then I would expect full GIDs to be around 253 at 94% SOC and LBW to occur around 18.5 percent GIDS, which it does.

Clearly, there are some rather serious sources of inaccuracy in the instruments on at least some LEAFs out there.

I will also note that one of the 2011 LEAFs in the Phoenix range test last year had a bunch of capacity squirreled away below LBW. As such, it doesn't seem like this is only a 2013 issue.

This is why every car and every pack is different (different electronics slightly, tolerances, etc,etc) and no 2 or 3 or 5 will act the same..

Coming back from Tony's was the ONLY time I've ever taken my pack down low (8 Gids and 2.957v lowest cell) but I never hit Turtle and I never had limited power output..

It went like this for 20+ miles or so :lol:

The 2013's are a strange breed it seems... I don't like the #'s and data coming off. That pack voltage either dropped or fell quickly or the car goes into LBW and Turtle faster to prevent damage (which is kinda good)...

This was mine that night.. 291 miles on a single day and NO CHAdeMO!!

Note that if you turn off the voice prompt on the Nav system, it also turns off all the audio warnings (stupid design)...

cwerdna said:

Yes, '13 Leaf SV definitely has both audio warnings and messages on the center console LCD at LBW and VLBW.

Click to expand...