DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13338
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:10 am

johnlocke wrote:
WetEV wrote:
johnlocke wrote:jury is still out on what the update does other than change the numbers that LeafSpy reports.


It seems pretty clear that the only thing the update does is change the numbers that LeafSpy reports, and that determine how many capacity bars to show.

The important question is: Is the new firmware more accurate than the old firmware?

Capacity estimation is a hard subject, there are some good papers on the difficulties, but they all seem to be behind paywalls. This is why most EV makers hide any capacity estimates from the user. Nissan is more open on this topic, and is due credit for being so.

If the firmware update changes the AH values then we should expect to see more GID's then before the update and an increase in range. People have reported the change in AH but so far I haven't seen any reports of higher GID's values or any increase in range. If the range doesn't change after the upgrade then Nissan is just jerking us around and trying to avoid warranty claims. If the car shows 12 bars but only gets 65-70 miles to a charge then the only thing Nissan fixed is their warranty issue not the battery. I can't make that comparison since I had the battery changed and the update done at the same time. We need owners who were down 2-3 bars and are now back up to 12 bars to report their GID's value at full charge from both before and after the update and if they have noticed any increase in overall range since the update.


We seem to be getting different stories here. The results of the update seems to fall into 2 broad categories.

1) User can't tell if range has changed mostly because their normal usage is well below the full charge range of the car both before and after the update

2) People who claim they have more range due to restored bars that likely boosted their confidence to drive farther.


Now there is also a smaller category of people who have simply lost trust in the car and won't challenge the range opting to gas it for trips longer than the shorter local distances.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

johnlocke
Posts: 299
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:46 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
johnlocke wrote:
WetEV wrote:
It seems pretty clear that the only thing the update does is change the numbers that LeafSpy reports, and that determine how many capacity bars to show.

The important question is: Is the new firmware more accurate than the old firmware?

Capacity estimation is a hard subject, there are some good papers on the difficulties, but they all seem to be behind paywalls. This is why most EV makers hide any capacity estimates from the user. Nissan is more open on this topic, and is due credit for being so.

If the firmware update changes the AH values then we should expect to see more GID's then before the update and an increase in range. People have reported the change in AH but so far I haven't seen any reports of higher GID's values or any increase in range. If the range doesn't change after the upgrade then Nissan is just jerking us around and trying to avoid warranty claims. If the car shows 12 bars but only gets 65-70 miles to a charge then the only thing Nissan fixed is their warranty issue not the battery. I can't make that comparison since I had the battery changed and the update done at the same time. We need owners who were down 2-3 bars and are now back up to 12 bars to report their GID's value at full charge from both before and after the update and if they have noticed any increase in overall range since the update.


We seem to be getting different stories here. The results of the update seems to fall into 2 broad categories.

1) User can't tell if range has changed mostly because their normal usage is well below the full charge range of the car both before and after the update

2) People who claim they have more range due to restored bars that likely boosted their confidence to drive farther.


Now there is also a smaller category of people who have simply lost trust in the car and won't challenge the range opting to gas it for trips longer than the shorter local distances.

Most people drive the same route 5 days a week. They use about the same percentage of their charge each time. If the battery has improved then they should use a lower percentage of charge now then they used to. I.E if their commute is 55 miles round trip and they get 3.8mi/KWH and their battery was at 75% SOH then they ought to use about 66% of the battery's capacity and show 33% on the dash gauge after the trip. if the battery improves to 85% SOH then we would expect the dash gauge to read about 42% after the same trip. Even for shorter commutes the effect should be noticeable. For a 38 mi round trip the numbers would be 53% before and 59% after. I'm willing to bet everyone can tell me what percent of charge they had left after their daily commute before the update. I simply want to know if the percent of charge left after their daily commute has changed.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

webeleafowners
Posts: 523
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Sep 04, 2018 7:21 pm

johnlocke wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
johnlocke wrote:If the firmware update changes the AH values then we should expect to see more GID's then before the update and an increase in range. People have reported the change in AH but so far I haven't seen any reports of higher GID's values or any increase in range. If the range doesn't change after the upgrade then Nissan is just jerking us around and trying to avoid warranty claims. If the car shows 12 bars but only gets 65-70 miles to a charge then the only thing Nissan fixed is their warranty issue not the battery. I can't make that comparison since I had the battery changed and the update done at the same time. We need owners who were down 2-3 bars and are now back up to 12 bars to report their GID's value at full charge from both before and after the update and if they have noticed any increase in overall range since the update.


We seem to be getting different stories here. The results of the update seems to fall into 2 broad categories.

1) User can't tell if range has changed mostly because their normal usage is well below the full charge range of the car both before and after the update

2) People who claim they have more range due to restored bars that likely boosted their confidence to drive farther.


Now there is also a smaller category of people who have simply lost trust in the car and won't challenge the range opting to gas it for trips longer than the shorter local distances.

Most people drive the same route 5 days a week. They use about the same percentage of their charge each time. If the battery has improved then they should use a lower percentage of charge now then they used to. I.E if their commute is 55 miles round trip and they get 3.8mi/KWH and their battery was at 75% SOH then they ought to use about 66% of the battery's capacity and show 33% on the dash gauge after the trip. if the battery improves to 85% SOH then we would expect the dash gauge to read about 42% after the same trip. Even for shorter commutes the effect should be noticeable. For a 38 mi round trip the numbers would be 53% before and 59% after. I'm willing to bet everyone can tell me what percent of charge they had left after their daily commute before the update. I simply want to know if the percent of charge left after their daily commute has changed.


So in our case we can clearly tell that our range is longer, both on our daily commute during the week and our regular, longer distance weekend routine. This is all based on the GOM. We do not have Leaf spy.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:15 am

johnlocke wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
johnlocke wrote:If the firmware update changes the AH values then we should expect to see more GID's then before the update and an increase in range. People have reported the change in AH but so far I haven't seen any reports of higher GID's values or any increase in range. If the range doesn't change after the upgrade then Nissan is just jerking us around and trying to avoid warranty claims. If the car shows 12 bars but only gets 65-70 miles to a charge then the only thing Nissan fixed is their warranty issue not the battery. I can't make that comparison since I had the battery changed and the update done at the same time. We need owners who were down 2-3 bars and are now back up to 12 bars to report their GID's value at full charge from both before and after the update and if they have noticed any increase in overall range since the update.


We seem to be getting different stories here. The results of the update seems to fall into 2 broad categories.

1) User can't tell if range has changed mostly because their normal usage is well below the full charge range of the car both before and after the update

2) People who claim they have more range due to restored bars that likely boosted their confidence to drive farther.


Now there is also a smaller category of people who have simply lost trust in the car and won't challenge the range opting to gas it for trips longer than the shorter local distances.

Most people drive the same route 5 days a week. They use about the same percentage of their charge each time. If the battery has improved then they should use a lower percentage of charge now then they used to. I.E if their commute is 55 miles round trip and they get 3.8mi/KWH and their battery was at 75% SOH then they ought to use about 66% of the battery's capacity and show 33% on the dash gauge after the trip. if the battery improves to 85% SOH then we would expect the dash gauge to read about 42% after the same trip. Even for shorter commutes the effect should be noticeable. For a 38 mi round trip the numbers would be 53% before and 59% after. I'm willing to bet everyone can tell me what percent of charge they had left after their daily commute before the update. I simply want to know if the percent of charge left after their daily commute has changed.


Except that variations in temperature and traffic speeds alone can easily vary the remaining SOC by almost 10% over a 45-mile roundtrip. Someone would have to be meticulous in their records so that they can compare a weeks worth of differences instead of just daily. Just saying that it's not that cut-and-dry.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13338
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:12 am

Agreed. Most people only have general impressions of their range. I have a better picture of mine simply because I record my performance every day and the numbers vary very widely from day to day.

Problem with me is traffic and its infinite variances. I generally just follow along to get where I need to go and its anywhere from minimal delays to very long ones. This includes my commute which is 23.1 miles per day round trip (this is the EXACT mileage on trip meter nearly all the time)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jbuntz
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:19 pm

This is the most conclusive report i have see regarding the update.

https://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-ni ... reporting/

If you read through you will see that the update does not change the total capacity, just how it is reported. This is also my experience. Before the update you could get down to very low battery warning and you still had quite a few miles to go. After the update when it gets to vlbw you had better be looking for a charge.

And yes after the update the GIDs reported changed proportionally to the increase in Ahr.

As of 9/8/2018 I am at 63.92 AHr 80.42% SOH 55.98% Hx 292 GIDs. Down 1 bar.
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
Date Bar MI GID Ahr SOH
05/17 12 05175 324 70.75 89
08/17 11 09245 282 61.68 77
10/17 10 12000 260 57.22 71
01/18 09 15329 244 53.72 68
06/20 08 21716 230 50.41 63
06/27 11 22047 296 66.01 83 Aftr Updt

johnlocke
Posts: 299
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:46 pm

It's the 1st of Oct. and I'm just over 50K on the car and 5K on the new battery. 79.15 AH, SOH =99.59% Hx = 91.80% 362 GID's. I've lost 3 AH off the peak value but since GID's is limited by software to 363 GID's max and the battery is still over 79 AH there's no noticeable loss of range. The battery does seem to be following the same pattern as the old one. I'm still hoping the new firmware will change the degradation curve but it's still too early to tell if that's going to be the case. I've just gone through a hot summer so we'll see how the battery does in cooler weather. I'd like to see the battery last for at least 80K more mi. If the software fix is real then that should be the case. If not. then it would be nice to have it poop out by 90-95K so I can get that third battery under warranty. Worst case is the battery craps out just after I hit 100K and I have to trade it in for next to nothing and buy something else (probably not a Nissan). I usually put more than 150K and closer to 200K before buying a new car. If I can only get 5 1/2 or 6 yrs out of the car, that will be extremely disappointing to me. I'd like to have at least a couple of years without a car payment.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

jbuntz
Posts: 139
Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:41 am
Delivery Date: 17 Dec 2016
Leaf Number: 303765
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:56 am

This is my final post concerning my 2016 30kWh Leaf. I am now the proud owner of a Tesla Model 3. It is more than a no compromise electric car, by far the finest car I have ever owned.

As of 9/28/2018 when I traded it in the battery was at 63.39 Ahr 79.76 SOH 25435 mi 290 GID. Range to LBW 76 mi.

List price with dealer add-ons was almost $40,000 less 10,000 discount and 7,500 tax rebate for a net cost of 22,500. I received 14,000 trade in for a total cost of ownership of $8,500 or $405 a month. Electricity costs of $445. I figure gas would have cost $2100. My net cost ending up about $300 a month considering the gas savings.

I have to say I really like the way the Leaf drives. It is a great commuter car. Not going to miss the limited range. If the 40kWh batteries are holding up I might consider a used one for a replacement for our Prius in a few years....
Mfg 11/15 Del 12/16 TX 2016 SL 30kWh,
Date Bar MI GID Ahr SOH
05/17 12 05175 324 70.75 89
08/17 11 09245 282 61.68 77
10/17 10 12000 260 57.22 71
01/18 09 15329 244 53.72 68
06/20 08 21716 230 50.41 63
06/27 11 22047 296 66.01 83 Aftr Updt

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9837
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:26 pm

Maybe WetEV will buy your car from the dealer and restore that lost capacity with the Magic Update.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

johnlocke
Posts: 299
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:11 pm

Oct update. I now have about 7000 mi on the new battery after 4 1/2 months. I'm showing the first signs of detirioration already. Stats as of Nov 1.

359 GID's, AH=78.47, SOH=98.73% Hx=90.30%. 51819 mi (6890 mi. on new bat.). 120 L3 (6 on new bat.), 1005 L2 (131on new bat.),

Going by AH, I'm down by 4.5% from new. GID's value didn't budge for the first 3 months and is now dropping. Annual loss is estimated at 11% at the current rate. I'm still expecting the loss to slow over the winter but time will tell. At the current rate, the battery will just miss the 100K warranty. So maybe 60k before the fourth bar drops on the new battery. If the detirioration slows in the winter, then maybe 70-75K before the fourth bar drops. I certainly wouldn't expect much better than that.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

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