johnlocke
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:55 pm

Lost the second bar today! ODO = 34271 mi. AHr = 59.36, SOH =74%, Hx = 66.91% 58 QC's, 640 L1/L2's. Could it be that the first bar is 20% and the next 3 bars are 5% each? That would give a 4 bar loss at 65% which is close enough to the 66% you would expect for the loss of 4 bars out of 12. Also the 20% loss on the first bar is what Nissan expected at 100000 mi. So the car would have all twelve bars up to the end of the warranty period if the battery held up as expected. Then the last 8 bars would be 8% each. Or it could be that first bar is 20% and the next 11 are about 7% each which is more likely to my mind. Who knows how Nissan has programmed them. Time will tell. I'm expecting a replacement battery by next summer at this rate. Have there been any reports of a 3 bar loss yet?
2016 SV
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

SageBrush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:27 am

If Nissan has not manipulated the warranty, the 30 kWh LEAF should have its battery eligible for replacement at around 51-52 Ahrs with 4 capacity bar loss. Losing the second bar at 75% SOH is still off the mark of a 24 kWh battery (where it happens at ~ 79% SOH) but actually somewhat reassuring in the sense of the second bar dropping after 5% SOH loss.

I suppose the least obnoxious version of this degradation/CB game is that Nissan did not change the threshold for replacement but did change the thresholds for each bar loss. That might make sense if Nissan is trying to increase the fraction of off-lease cars that still show 12 bars.

We will see.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

Valdemar
Posts: 2419
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:25 am

johnlocke wrote:Lost the second bar today! ODO = 34271 mi. AHr = 59.36, SOH =74%, Hx = 66.91% 58 QC's, 640 L1/L2's. Could it be that the first bar is 20% and the next 3 bars are 5% each?


My theory they are just random %-ages with the odometer and in-service date based seed to the algorithm that makes sure the capacity gauge doesn't drop below 4 bars while within the capacity warranty.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

johnlocke
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:45 pm

We now have reports of at least 4 cars with 4 bar losses. Per the Nissan Help Desk, third bar drops at 70% and the Fourth bar drops at 63% Two owners report that the fourth bar loss was around 60% Now at least we have some concrete evidence of when to expect a replacement battery. The 60% number isn't particularly exciting since that equals 18 KWH capacity. For me, that works out to 64 miles total and I drive 55 miles round trip every day. Doesn't leave much margin for error or extra errands. On the bright side, Nissan also confirmed that the original 100,000 mi/8 year warranty would still cover a replacement battery. That means that it's possible to have the battery replaced several times under the warranty.
2016 SV
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12328
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:15 am

johnlocke wrote:We now have reports of at least 4 cars with 4 bar losses. Per the Nissan Help Desk, third bar drops at 70% and the Fourth bar drops at 63% Two owners report that the fourth bar loss was around 60% Now at least we have some concrete evidence of when to expect a replacement battery. The 60% number isn't particularly exciting since that equals 18 KWH capacity. For me, that works out to 64 miles total and I drive 55 miles round trip every day. Doesn't leave much margin for error or extra errands. On the bright side, Nissan also confirmed that the original 100,000 mi/8 year warranty would still cover a replacement battery. That means that it's possible to have the battery replaced several times under the warranty.


numbers based on Nissan BMS as we already know have a wide variance due to likely calibration issues. Since each pack should drop bars at about the same SOC, this is a good example of the error caused partially by charging/driving habits, unbalanced cells and a BMS that has simply lost count...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:27 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
johnlocke wrote:We now have reports of at least 4 cars with 4 bar losses. Per the Nissan Help Desk, third bar drops at 70% and the Fourth bar drops at 63% Two owners report that the fourth bar loss was around 60% Now at least we have some concrete evidence of when to expect a replacement battery. The 60% number isn't particularly exciting since that equals 18 KWH capacity. For me, that works out to 64 miles total and I drive 55 miles round trip every day. Doesn't leave much margin for error or extra errands. On the bright side, Nissan also confirmed that the original 100,000 mi/8 year warranty would still cover a replacement battery. That means that it's possible to have the battery replaced several times under the warranty.


numbers based on Nissan BMS as we already know have a wide variance due to likely calibration issues. Since each pack should drop bars at about the same SOC, this is a good example of the error caused partially by charging/driving habits, unbalanced cells and a BMS that has simply lost count...


Some variation, but at least for the 24 kWh models the bar drops for ~ 2 SD of the reports are within an Ahr of each other.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12328
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:53 am

SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
johnlocke wrote:We now have reports of at least 4 cars with 4 bar losses. Per the Nissan Help Desk, third bar drops at 70% and the Fourth bar drops at 63% Two owners report that the fourth bar loss was around 60% Now at least we have some concrete evidence of when to expect a replacement battery. The 60% number isn't particularly exciting since that equals 18 KWH capacity. For me, that works out to 64 miles total and I drive 55 miles round trip every day. Doesn't leave much margin for error or extra errands. On the bright side, Nissan also confirmed that the original 100,000 mi/8 year warranty would still cover a replacement battery. That means that it's possible to have the battery replaced several times under the warranty.


numbers based on Nissan BMS as we already know have a wide variance due to likely calibration issues. Since each pack should drop bars at about the same SOC, this is a good example of the error caused partially by charging/driving habits, unbalanced cells and a BMS that has simply lost count...


Some variation, but at least for the 24 kWh models the bar drops for ~ 2 SD of the reports are within an Ahr of each other.


battery numbers for 24 kwh packs showed the same volatility which we all know is simply not really possible so any similarity in the numbers when the bars dropped only meant packs that were equal in balance and calibration. But if you look at enough you will see several incidences when that did not happen.

Just search for "When does the last..." or "Why hasn't my 4th bar dropped?" etc for those who lost bars at lower than the norm. Were they persecuted. made to wait longer than the rest? Or simply was the BMS simply on holiday? I am betting on the latter.

Remember we did at least one incidence of someone who lost their 4th bar, took it to the dealership and it failed the degradation test. Even stranger was the fact that the test somehow restored his 4th bar. So he had to take the LEAF back home, drive it for a bit more until the bar disappeared again...

So yeah, the numbers are at best guidelines due to the VERY wide tolerance the BMS seems to be using.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:26 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:So yeah, the numbers are at best guidelines due to the VERY wide tolerance the BMS seems to be using.

No

Look at the aggregate data
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

sendler2112
Posts: 216
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 5:05 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Jan 2016
Location: Syracuse, NY USA

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:19 am

johnlocke wrote: On the bright side, Nissan also confirmed that the original 100,000 mi/8 year warranty would still cover a replacement battery. That means that it's possible to have the battery replaced several times under the warranty.

The 100,000/ 8 warranty is only for battery failures. Which we have seen is very hard to get even with a cell pair that stays 700mv out of balance. He had to get the media involved and hire a lawyer.
.
The 4 bar capacity loss waranty will be hard to get for most owners as it is 60,000/ 5 years.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12328
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Sep 30, 2017 10:22 am

sendler2112 wrote:
johnlocke wrote: On the bright side, Nissan also confirmed that the original 100,000 mi/8 year warranty would still cover a replacement battery. That means that it's possible to have the battery replaced several times under the warranty.

The 100,000/ 8 warranty is only for battery failures. Which we have seen is very hard to get even with a cell pair that stays 700mv out of balance. He had to get the media involved and hire a lawyer.
.
The 4 bar capacity loss waranty will be hard to get for most owners as it is 60,000/ 5 years.


the "degradation" warranty on 30 kwh packs is a MINIMUM 8 years or 100,000 miles which ever comes first.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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