GRA
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:35 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Durandal wrote:
johnlocke wrote:Another month gone by and I've lost a few more GID's. Readings are 289 GID's, 63.32AH, SOH=79%, Hx=72.45%, 31505 miles, 50 QC, and 587 L1/L2. At this rate, I'll be looking at a new battery next spring somewhere around 43000 miles and 26 months ownership. At that point the range will be barely adequate for my daily commute and then only if I don't have any stops to make. I expect to make at least 2-3 QC every week by that point assuming I can find an open QC spot. Chevy's and BMW's are starting to show up pretty regularly at the EVGO station I usually use.

Looks like they haven't managed to overcome the need for thermal management through battery chemistry alone. Given that the 30kWh batteries have a longer capacity warranty, you might end up getting replacement batteries TWICE before the end of your warranty.

Getting a couple of replacement batteries out of Nissan isn't the same as having a battery that actually lasts 100,000 miles. Nissan's promise was a battery that would still have 80% of it's original capacity at 100,000 miles. That might be possible in the northwest and Canada but it isn't going to happen in the south or southwest. Most of those cars will be lucky to last 60,000 miles. After 4 or 5 years most of them will need new batteries no matter how few miles they have on them. I'm seeing reports of low milage 30KWH cars in Texas and Florida dropping their first bars already. I thought that they must have solved the battery issue since they were offering the longer warranty and the Lizard battery was a substantial improvement. My mistake.

Based on their past behavior, I was unwilling to accept any of Nissan's claims re improved battery life in hot weather sans ATM, especially as I was convinced that a warranty based on 'bars' whose values were unspecified (and thus subject to change any time they chose) was pretty useless, and open to the same sort of shenanigans as they've tried to pull in the past. Sadly,based on the data we've been seeing from owners of the Lizard and 30kWh battery packs, it seems that's exactly the route they've chosen to take. Can't say I'm surprised.

So, while a pack that doesn't need ATM to limit degradation in all U.S. climates remains the ideal, Nissan and other companies are nowhere near achieving that yet. Until Nissan offers a warranty with some enforceable standards I simply wouldn't consider any of their BEVs, even though the climate I'm in isn't very hard on a pack.
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drees
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:12 am

johnlocke wrote:Yeah, still at 11 bars. The first bar didn't start to drop until I hit 82% and wasn't completely gone until I hit 80%. I've seen a couple of reports of the second bar dropping at around 77%. I wouldn't be surprised to hit 72-73% before the second bar goes.

What do the individual cell-pair voltages look like at 100% charged and at LBW or lower (~20%)? I wonder if there was just some bad QC on some cells or if they are all losing capacity evenly which indicates a much larger issue, or at least a larger issue that affects a wide-range of cells.
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johnlocke
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:51 am

drees wrote:
johnlocke wrote:Yeah, still at 11 bars. The first bar didn't start to drop until I hit 82% and wasn't completely gone until I hit 80%. I've seen a couple of reports of the second bar dropping at around 77%. I wouldn't be surprised to hit 72-73% before the second bar goes.

What do the individual cell-pair voltages look like at 100% charged and at LBW or lower (~20%)? I wonder if there was just some bad QC on some cells or if they are all losing capacity evenly which indicates a much larger issue, or at least a larger issue that affects a wide-range of cells.

Cells are typically within 10-20mv at 100% charge. I haven't really checked at 20% or less. I do hit LBW once or twice a week on the way home but haven't checked the balance there. BTW, LBW is fixed at 50 GID's so I've watched it slowly creep up from 13% charge to 17% charge left before the lady tells me the battery is low. As far a I can tell, the problem is general chemistry not cell failures.
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Valdemar
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:17 am

GRA wrote:Sadly,based on the data we've been seeing from owners of the Lizard and 30kWh battery packs, it seems that's exactly the route they've chosen to take. Can't say I'm surprised.


I was skeptical about the Lizard as well but after 16mo/37k miles and well into the second SoCal summer being at 93% SOH makes me cautiously optimistic the improvements were real. Will this be enough? Time will tell.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:01 pm

so completely different climate so.... ahh, well sort of. The reality is I am in the midst of the hottest Summer EVER here (or at least the past 31 years) which happens to correspond with my attempts to prematurely degrade my battery pack. I felt a little would be ok, just to see how fast it would hit and its still too early to tell but I have cooked my pack several times and still no real signs of numbers dropping.

As far as a bad cell? Your numbers would look fine. A bad cell comes on fast and hard and yours seems to be a slowly degrading thing.

But discounting this year, I drove nearly identical miles on my 2011 and 2013 and the 2011 was at about 87% after 45,000 miles with the 2013 at 92-93% after the same. So more than enough gap to say the batteries are better.

With only 9 months on the 30 kwh pack, its too early to make any claims but I have over 150 QCs, 4 to 5 dozen times baking the pack to 10 TBs, a few dozen 3+ fast charge days and I found the only thing that lowers the numbers is parking the car. last month, I was gone for 2 days, had 2 light driving days (about 20-25 miles a day) then gone for 3 days and saw my ahr drop to 81.90 which was first drop from new. Dropped to 98% SOH, 97% Hx, but 3 days of "normal" driving or 80+ miles a day with QCs regularly and I am back to 82.34

Well, predicted temps to be in the mid 90's for most of next week so another good time to bake.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
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johnlocke
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:49 pm

Someone asked me about cell balance at low battery levels so I decided to check it. Cells are within 10-20mv even at LBW. Battery is currently at 281 GID's full charge, 61.38AH, 77% SOH. I'm still showing 11 bars. After 20 months and 32000 miles I now have a 24KWH battery. Range is down to 75-80 miles. Usable range without a top up in town is about 65 miles. Normal daily commute is about 55 mi. so I'm still good there but any extra errands means a trip to a charging station before I get home.. This car was always considered as a commuter but I didn't expect to be in this position until I hit 80k-90k mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

SageBrush
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:33 pm

GRA wrote:
johnlocke wrote:
Durandal wrote:Looks like they haven't managed to overcome the need for thermal management through battery chemistry alone. Given that the 30kWh batteries have a longer capacity warranty, you might end up getting replacement batteries TWICE before the end of your warranty.

Getting a couple of replacement batteries out of Nissan isn't the same as having a battery that actually lasts 100,000 miles. Nissan's promise was a battery that would still have 80% of it's original capacity at 100,000 miles. That might be possible in the northwest and Canada but it isn't going to happen in the south or southwest. Most of those cars will be lucky to last 60,000 miles. After 4 or 5 years most of them will need new batteries no matter how few miles they have on them. I'm seeing reports of low milage 30KWH cars in Texas and Florida dropping their first bars already. I thought that they must have solved the battery issue since they were offering the longer warranty and the Lizard battery was a substantial improvement. My mistake.

Based on their past behavior, I was unwilling to accept any of Nissan's claims re improved battery life in hot weather sans ATM, especially as I was convinced that a warranty based on 'bars' whose values were unspecified (and thus subject to change any time they chose) was pretty useless, and open to the same sort of shenanigans as they've tried to pull in the past. Sadly,based on the data we've been seeing from owners of the Lizard and 30kWh battery packs, it seems that's exactly the route they've chosen to take. Can't say I'm surprised.

So, while a pack that doesn't need ATM to limit degradation in all U.S. climates remains the ideal, Nissan and other companies are nowhere near achieving that yet. Until Nissan offers a warranty with some enforceable standards I simply wouldn't consider any of their BEVs, even though the climate I'm in isn't very hard on a pack.

I agree with this, and take it one step further:

I think Nissan has to offer a pro-rated warranty. Letting people get down to 63% of new range (or whatever they choose) within a year or two of purchase is just not acceptable.
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
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johnlocke
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:59 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
johnlocke wrote:Getting a couple of replacement batteries out of Nissan isn't the same as having a battery that actually lasts 100,000 miles. Nissan's promise was a battery that would still have 80% of it's original capacity at 100,000 miles. That might be possible in the northwest and Canada but it isn't going to happen in the south or southwest. Most of those cars will be lucky to last 60,000 miles. After 4 or 5 years most of them will need new batteries no matter how few miles they have on them. I'm seeing reports of low milage 30KWH cars in Texas and Florida dropping their first bars already. I thought that they must have solved the battery issue since they were offering the longer warranty and the Lizard battery was a substantial improvement. My mistake.

Based on their past behavior, I was unwilling to accept any of Nissan's claims re improved battery life in hot weather sans ATM, especially as I was convinced that a warranty based on 'bars' whose values were unspecified (and thus subject to change any time they chose) was pretty useless, and open to the same sort of shenanigans as they've tried to pull in the past. Sadly,based on the data we've been seeing from owners of the Lizard and 30kWh battery packs, it seems that's exactly the route they've chosen to take. Can't say I'm surprised.

So, while a pack that doesn't need ATM to limit degradation in all U.S. climates remains the ideal, Nissan and other companies are nowhere near achieving that yet. Until Nissan offers a warranty with some enforceable standards I simply wouldn't consider any of their BEVs, even though the climate I'm in isn't very hard on a pack.

I agree with this, and take it one step further:

I think Nissan has to offer a pro-rated warranty. Letting people get down to 63% of new range (or whatever they choose) within a year or two of purchase is just not acceptable.

A pro-rated warranty isn't the answer here. The battery should last for the life of the car. Pro-rating the battery is just another way of saying we should have charged you more in the first place. Why should I pay $2000 to replace a defective battery that only lasted 40,000 miles when that battery has a 100,000 mi warranty in the first place. What we need is a clearly stated minimum capacity at EOL. I.E. 70% of rated capacity at 100,000 mi. 70% is pretty much the industry standard for battery degradation anyway and the milage and/or years of life is up to the manufacturer. There's been some discussion at CARB about a 150,000 mi/10 year mandated warranty similar to the required emissions warranty on ICE. Reasoning is that these vehicles are replacing ICE vehicles and providing emission credits to the manufacturer. Therefore the BEV vehicle should last as long as the ICE vehicle it replaces. Early failure of the battery and the high cost to replace it ensures that some of those cars won't be on the road as long as their ICE counterparts and some of the emission benefits will be lost.

If Nissan wanted to do it, they could put a 40KWH battery in the car and limit the battery use to the middle 30KWH. A shallower charge/discharge curve has been shown to dramatically improve battery life. A 150,000 mi warranty would mean about 2000 charge/discharge cycles. Batteries cycled between 20% and 80% can withstand up to 5000 cycles.
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SageBrush
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:14 am

johnlocke wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:Based on their past behavior, I was unwilling to accept any of Nissan's claims re improved battery life in hot weather sans ATM, especially as I was convinced that a warranty based on 'bars' whose values were unspecified (and thus subject to change any time they chose) was pretty useless, and open to the same sort of shenanigans as they've tried to pull in the past. Sadly,based on the data we've been seeing from owners of the Lizard and 30kWh battery packs, it seems that's exactly the route they've chosen to take. Can't say I'm surprised.

So, while a pack that doesn't need ATM to limit degradation in all U.S. climates remains the ideal, Nissan and other companies are nowhere near achieving that yet. Until Nissan offers a warranty with some enforceable standards I simply wouldn't consider any of their BEVs, even though the climate I'm in isn't very hard on a pack.

I agree with this, and take it one step further:

I think Nissan has to offer a pro-rated warranty. Letting people get down to 63% of new range (or whatever they choose) within a year or two of purchase is just not acceptable.

A pro-rated warranty isn't the answer here. The battery should last for the life of the car. Pro-rating the battery is just another way of saying we should have charged you more in the first place. Why should I pay $2000 to replace a defective battery that only lasted 40,000 miles when that battery has a 100,000 mi warranty in the first place.

Using your example of at least 70% by 100,000 miles, I am saying no more than 3% loss every 10k miles. Perhaps I should call it a linear warranty.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

joeriv
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Aug 19, 2017 5:01 am

A shallower charge/discharge curve has been shown to dramatically improve battery life.


Do you have a source on this? I'd like to read about it.
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