Solar Edge Optimizers?

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ELROY

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
293
Location
Camarillo, CA
Does anyone know the truth about these Solar Edge optimizers?

http://solaredgevsenphase.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Supposedly will allow much higher energy yield than the 215 watt Enphase limit.
Still offer some shade mitigation.
Most importantly do not contain the vulnerable electrolytic capacitors.

How are the quality of components in the 5KW system, which is $8599 or $1.71/watt (+ Labor)
Complete with racks, optimizers, 5Kw inverter, monitoring system, etc.

http://www.solarhome.com/perlight-solar-super-sale.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How much can one expect to pay for labor. Someone said about $1 watt labor, which would make this whole system $2.71 watt/ installed.

On the other hand, I have found several vendors on Ebay that offer ~240 watt panels for about $200 each shipped.
Some are grade A, UL Listed, etc. Some are not, which I believe will preclude them from some of the rebates/credits.

solarpanellist.jpg



Being that I can get about 5760 watts of grade "A" Upsolar panels (24 qty) for $4032 + shipping),
How much can I expect to pay for everything else such as racks, cables, etc.

I Guess a central inverter can be had for about $2000, or 24 M215 Enphase Micros for about $3600. However, do the 215 watt max of the Enphase Microinverters really create less power than these optimiziers Solaredge is promoting?

I wonder how much the Solaredge Optimizers cost per panel. Wondering if that $8599 5kw Solarhome deal (pts only), is really that good considering I can get panels for approx $4032.

Here is a desription of the UpSolar panels I am leaning towards..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/26-240w-solar-panels-made-with-60-6x6-solar-cells-A-grade-full-pallet-70w-/171019564474?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27d18f75ba" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

..Just not sure if all that racking/central invertor/optimiziers/package is worth the extra $4500 from Solarhome.com.
 
ELROY said:
Supposedly will allow much higher energy yield than the 215 watt Enphase limit.
I doubt it. Perhaps if you live in a very cold climate and are installing panels larger than 260W this might be an issue. Otherwise, it appears the Enphase M215s are more efficient.
ELROY said:
Most importantly do not contain the vulnerable electrolytic capacitors.
Are you sure the M215 contains electrolytic capacitors? I do not know the answer, but I have read a statement (that I cannot verify) that the architecture in the M215s is different than the M190s and has allowed the electrolytics to be eliminated:
Just to add to the mix, newer Enphase units has dumped the controversial large low voltage electrolytics across the panel voltage in favor of the industry trend of putting non-polarized caps (with higher reliability record) on the high voltage booster. So you need to track the particular model.
Even Solar Edge does not claim this benefit.

I will point out that the Solar Edge central inverter almost certainly contains electrolytic capacitors and it is a single-point failure for the entire system.
 
Elroy, I have a couple of questions for you:

- Will you have any shade challenges with your array?
- Have you gotten estimates from other installers that use different system architectures (microinverters, central inverter, optimizer+central)?
- Do you trust that your installer and/or the company will be around in 25 years to honor the warranty?
- How responsive is the company to warranty claims? (Contact them - pose as a customer with a bad part and see how you're handled.)

I agree with Reg on the capacitor issue. I haven't seen anything that says that Enphase M215s use electrolytic caps. This is a hot-button item in the inverter industry and it's in the advertising copy for the 'upstart' companies that are juggling/fighting each other for market share. All systems have weaknesses - don't get too caught up in the garbage if you get good service and your gut says the company or your installer will take care of you.

Good hunting!
 
How do these Power One Microinverters compare to the Enphase in price/quality?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AE34Werkxe8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=20YizITsAL0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
Benefits of Enphase M215:

- 25-year warranty (versus 10)
- Lower cost (~$145 versus ~$180)
- Right power rating (215W versus 250W or 250W)
- Monitor capability up to 120 panels (versus 30)
- NEMA 6 enclosure (versus NEMA 4X)
- Established reliability (versus ?)
- Easy one-screw mounting (versus 2)

Benefits of Power One microinverter:

- Higher output power 250W or 300W (versus 215W)

Note that higher output power is both a benefit and a drawback. Not only does a more powerful inverter cost more, but it will also be less efficient unless it is used with a panel that consistently puts out close to the peak power of the inverter. So the higher output power capability of the Power One microinverter will be valuable with 260W or larger PV panels if used at high altitudes and/or in a cold climate. For 250W or smaller PV panels at sea level and in warmer climates, the Enphase M215 (which puts out up to ~225W) should produce (slightly) more electricity at a lower cost.

I do not like that the Power One microinverter cantilevers the PV connectors off the case. The problem here is that the electrical connections can be stressed and potentially damaged by the high forces needed to plug/unplug MC4 connectors. Enphase used this approach in early concepts but has since abandoned it in favor of pigtails. I suppose Power One may address the stress issue somehow internal to the package, but I cannot tell.
 
RegGuheert said:
Benefits of Enphase M215:

- 25-year warranty (versus 10)
- Lower cost (~$145 versus ~$180)
- Right power rating (215W versus 250W or 250W)
- Monitor capability up to 120 panels (versus 30)
- NEMA 6 enclosure (versus NEMA 4X)
- Established reliability (versus ?)
- Easy one-screw mounting (versus 2)

Benefits of Power One microinverter:

- Higher output power 250W or 300W (versus 215W)

Note that higher output power is both a benefit and a drawback. Not only does a more powerful inverter cost more, but it will also be less efficient unless it is used with a panel that consistently puts out close to the peak power of the inverter. So the higher output power capability of the Power One microinverter will be valuable with 260W or larger PV panels if used at high altitudes and/or in a cold climate. For 250W or smaller PV panels at sea level and in warmer climates, the Enphase M215 (which puts out up to ~225W) should produce (slightly) more electricity at a lower cost.

I do not like that the Power One microinverter cantilevers the PV connectors off the case. The problem here is that the electrical connections can be stressed and potentially damaged by the high forces needed to plug/unplug MC4 connectors. Enphase used this approach in early concepts but has since abandoned it in favor of pigtails. I suppose Power One may address the stress issue somehow internal to the package, but I cannot tell.

I am leaning towards the Enphase because of their proven track record. I had not even heard of the Power One Microinverters till yesterday when I was looking at Solartec USA on Ebay was pushing this microverter with their Telaphase 280 watt panels. But it looks like you might even need more connectors to make it work. Incidentally, Power One headquarters just happens to be located in my city of Camarillo.

Also, with a 240-250 watt panels, do the M215 microinverters just "lose" anything over 215 watts? Are others actually getting the 225watts mentioned here also? If so. with a 240-250watt panel, isn't the 225watts about the max you would get AC anyways?

It looks like "B" grade panels aren't entitled to the .20 cents/watt California Rebate...but I think they will pass Federal Tax deduction requirements.

On the other hand those UpSolar panels I am leaning towards are "A" grade, but I don't see the UL listing on them. The vender said they are on the list of approved panels though. I wish I could confirm that.


So far the best prices I have found on Ebay are:

$180 each for the 240watt Poly UpSolar Panels
$149 each for the M215 Microinverters
$485 for the Enphase Envoy.
$28 Each for the M215 Portrait Trunk Cable

Any other sources for good deals on the Enphase Products?

If I supply my own parts for the job, am I still okay with all the rebates/tax deductions as long as I keep the receipts?
If I purchase all these parts, do I have to install them all by the end of the year to get credit? Or does it not matter when I actually purchase them since the timetable starts with the permit application/installation/finish of the entire job?
 
RegGuheert said:
I do not like that the Power One microinverter cantilevers the PV connectors off the case. The problem here is that the electrical connections can be stressed and potentially damaged by the high forces needed to plug/unplug MC4 connectors. Enphase used this approach in early concepts but has since abandoned it in favor of pigtails. I suppose Power One may address the stress issue somehow internal to the package, but I cannot tell.
Maybe I'm missing something here, Reg - can you explain why you suggest MC4 connectors have high connect/disconnect forces? My panels use MC4 connectors - one finger and one thumb on each side for dry assembly is overkill. ;) When unplugging, one inserts the disconnect tool and holds the tool and one connector while tugging the other connector. A bit of silicone-based grease on the o-ring during initial assembly should make for very easy disconnects in 5 years when it's time to replace the first couple if inverters. ;)

Bulkhead connectors are fastened to the case/box/bulkhead, but the electrical connectors inside are not. In other words, any connector stress is passed to the case and not the wiring. Unless you think the company is using a special bulkhead connector with hard connections to a PCB?

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...t-Shipping-Free-Gift-pv/900768_368530167.html
 
ELROY said:
Also, with a 240-250 watt panels, do the M215 microinverters just "lose" anything over 215 watts? Are others actually getting the 225watts mentioned here also? If so. with a 240-250watt panel, isn't the 225watts about the max you would get AC anyways?

It looks like "B" grade panels aren't entitled to the .20 cents/watt California Rebate...but I think they will pass Federal Tax deduction requirements.

On the other hand those UpSolar panels I am leaning towards are "A" grade, but I don't see the UL listing on them. The vender said they are on the list of approved panels though. I wish I could confirm that.


So far the best prices I have found on Ebay are:

$180 each for the 240watt Poly UpSolar Panels
$149 each for the M215 Microinverters
$485 for the Enphase Envoy.
$28 Each for the M215 Portrait Trunk Cable

Any other sources for good deals on the Enphase Products?

If I supply my own parts for the job, am I still okay with all the rebates/tax deductions as long as I keep the receipts?
If I purchase all these parts, do I have to install them all by the end of the year to get credit? Or does it not matter when I actually purchase them since the timetable starts with the permit application/installation/finish of the entire job?

I don't yet have experience with 250 watt panels on M215s yet but basically what will happen is the microinverter will clip right at 215 watts AC output, so on your graphs you would see a period of time when output was completely flat. On my 230 watt panels in Washington rarely do I have get to 200 watts output so I'm really hoping that my new 250 watt panels will just barely be able to clip them.

I think a couple considerations for the clipping is that in the middle of summer the heat will cause the panel output to decrease so clipping will be less likely. Clipping will be more likely during the cooler sunny days of spring. The major benefit of a larger panel on a M215 is even though there might be some lost production from the clipping the rest of the time you are going to get more output since the panel is more efficient. I don't know how to properly calculate the cost of the loss from clipping compared to the increase production the rest of the time.

Then some other factors to consider. The CEC PTC rating for the CS6P-250P is 227.6 watts DC and the peak inverter efficiency is 96.3 percent so if you don't include things like panel soiling, not perfect southern orientation, not perfect tilt, minor loss on the wire, etc. that means 227.6 x .963 is 219.2 watts AC. I'm not sure if this is a correct way to look at the situation but it seems logical. Based on this under perfect conditions you are only going to be losing 1.9 percent due to clipping. But the rest of the time when you aren't clipping you are going to be producing more.

I don't know the specific of the California rebates but when you started asking about DIY earlier I browsed through all the stuff on the internet and didn't see any indications that DIY would pose any problem. It certainly does not pose a problem for the federal rebate. The federal rebate is pretty open as far as restrictions on what you can and cant' do.

I think if you didn't put the system into service until the following year you would just wait until it was put into service for the federal credit, not sure how the timing for the the California rebate works.

MotherNatureSolar might be listening and jump in with some more information on the California rebate questions. If not he's been very helpful via discussions I've had with him over email.
 
ELROY said:
I am leaning towards the Enphase because of their proven track record. I had not even heard of the Power One Microinverters till yesterday when I was looking at Solartec USA on Ebay was pushing this microverter with their Telaphase 280 watt panels. But it looks like you might even need more connectors to make it work. Incidentally, Power One headquarters just happens to be located in my city of Camarillo.
I agree that at 280W the Power One might make the most sense, but I wonder if they really only offer a 10-year warranty. That's pretty low for a microinverter, IMO.
ELROY said:
Also, with a 240-250 watt panels, do the M215 microinverters just "lose" anything over 215 watts?
Yes, the output power is hard limited to no more than about 225W.
ELROY said:
Are others actually getting the 225watts mentioned here also?
Yes, that is what people get from the M215 when it is limited. We get about 199 from the M190s we have. We see this occasionally in the wintertime with the 235W panels we use them with.
ELROY said:
If so. with a 240-250watt panel, isn't the 225watts about the max you would get AC anyways?
Yes, that's the point. You will probably never limit the output of a 240W panel using an M215 microinverter. With a 250W panel, you might limit a couple of times a year, if that. Keep in mind that the peak efficiency of the inverter is 96.3%, so the panel would need to put out over 233W to hit the 225W limit. In order to produce 233W from a 250W panel the sun needs to be near the boresight of the panel and it needs to be quite cool. For a house like ours with a south-facing roof, the sun only gets really close to the boresight in the spring and fall. In wintertime, it needs to be even colder for the limit to be reached.
ELROY said:
Any other sources for good deals on the Enphase Products?
A Google search gave $142, but I don't know how much shipping is.
ELROY said:
If I supply my own parts for the job, am I still okay with all the rebates/tax deductions as long as I keep the receipts?
That's what we did. But we only dealt with the federal rebate and my local (tiny) utility.
ELROY said:
If I purchase all these parts, do I have to install them all by the end of the year to get credit?
Yes. It is tied to when your array enters service. My understanding is that the federal government considers all purchases to have happened in the year when the system enters service.
ELROY said:
Or does it not matter when I actually purchase them since the timetable starts with the permit application/installation/finish of the entire job?
Service entry date for the federal tax credit.
AndyH said:
Maybe I'm missing something here, Reg - can you explain why you suggest MC4 connectors have high connect/disconnect forces? My panels use MC4 connectors - one finger and one thumb on each side for dry assembly is overkill. ;) When unplugging, one inserts the disconnect tool and holds the tool and one connector while tugging the other connector. A bit of silicone-based grease on the o-ring during initial assembly should make for very easy disconnects in 5 years when it's time to replace the first couple if inverters. ;)
If you use only MultiConnect brand (or any single brand) MC4s for everything I think your experience is typical. So anyone building a string of panels will likely have good experiences mating/demating MC4s. However, PV panels and microinverters are made by different companies and the chances that they use MC4 connectors from the same manufacturer is pretty low. My experience with Sharp panels and Enphase microinverters is that one way (like male PV, female microinverter) they go together fine, but the other direction is nearly impossible to mate or demate. It's particularly challenging to do it when the connections are being made underneath the panel.
AndyH said:
Bulkhead connectors are fastened to the case/box/bulkhead, but the electrical connectors inside are not. In other words, any connector stress is passed to the case and not the wiring. Unless you think the company is using a special bulkhead connector with hard connections to a PCB?

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...t-Shipping-Free-Gift-pv/900768_368530167.html
I'll just say that the mating force for some of these connections is MASSIVE. The fact that Enphase moved from bulkead connectors to pigtails makes me think they had some sort of problem with them.

One other problem with bulkhead connectors is that the nut is inaccessible once the case is sealed. If the connector gets rotated, it may be impossible to retighten it without damaging the internal connections.
 
Excellent info everyone. I have seen $149 shipped on the M215 on Ebay. $130 inverter would be awesome, but if they charge $20 ea to ship, then it comes out to the same anyways.

At first I was just going to get a 110v 1000watt grid tie inverter for $200. Would be simple enough to plug it into your wall outlet. I figure to start with, it would be interesting to see how feeding about 500-800 watts back into the wall would reduce my bill. But it seems these units aren't that reliable. They have island protection, MMPT, etc. However, I would get no advantage to net metering with the utility by using unappoved devices.

gridtieinverter.jpg



gridtieinverterb.jpg


Besides, if I want to start with trying to offset some of my usage during sunshine hours, the M215 would work just as well plugged into one of my 240v outlets. I am assuming it doesn't matter if I am feeding back 240v, it should directly offset any 120volt appliances being used in the house watt for watt??
 
ELROY said:
Besides, if I want to start with trying to offset some of my usage during sunshine hours, the M215 would work just as well plugged into one of my 240v outlets. I am assuming it doesn't matter if I am feeding back 240v, it should directly offset any 120volt appliances being used in the house watt for watt??

Not exactly but close. The two hot wires coming into your house are not perfectly balanced. So if you turn your toaster on and turn lights on these two circuits might be on the same leg. So one 120v leg might be consuming more than the other 120v leg. The M215s will put an equal amount on both legs. So you could be sending power back on one leg and consuming power in the other. Depending on your meter this may cost you money. Once you have a net meter it obviously would properly measure the surplus and give you credit for it.

Obviously the city and the utility would not endorse doing this :)
 
Just for further reference, here is a picture of production numbers from M215 inverters in a system in Sunnyvale, CA showing that they produce 225W:
M215_Limiting.png
These panels are driven by LG MonoX 260W PV panels at 4/12 pitch (18.5 degrees) elevation facing 60 degrees West of South. There is a very small amount of limiting occurring in April. Given the low pitch, I wonder if there was much even in the colder temperatures of the wintertime.
 
The SolarEdge inverter and power optimizer combination is a much better buy than micro inverters when it comes to performance and reliability. First of all the Enphase M215 micro inverter is only rated for 215 watts maximum, so even though a typical 250 watt solar panel with a +5% tolerance rating is capable of outputting 5% more than 250 watts you will only get a maximum of 215 watts out from each Enphase inverter. With an average of twenty micro inverters in a typical system, this will be a tremendous loss of power over the life of your system. With a system using SolarEdge power optimizers instead of micro inverters you will have a much greater maximum output rating of 300 watts.

Second, the Enphase 215 is only rated for 96.3 maximum efficiency and a CEC weighted efficiency of 96%. SolarEdge offers a considerably higher peak efficiency rating of 98.3% and a CEC weighted efficiency of 97.5%. This may not seem like a big difference but when you consider the 30 to 40 years life expectancy of your solar panels, the difference in efficiency will add up to considerable amount of power.

Third, the Enphase 215 will only turn on when your shaded panels have reached 22 volts whereas a SolarEdge equipped solar panel will begin producing power with as little as 5 volts which yields better shade protection and better early morning, late afternoon energy harvest.

Fourth, with Enphase, the portal which allows you to connect to the Internet so that you can monitor your solar panel’s individual performance is optional and costs about $500.00 whereas with Solaredge the Internet portal is built in at no additional cost. Also with Enphase you have to purchase their expensive proprietary cabling which costs about $40.00 per inverter. With SolarEdge the cabling is built in at no additional cost.

We’ve been operating a factory authorized inverter repair center for the past 11 years and a common failure that we see involves electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytic capacitors use a semi liquid paste in their design. As electrolytics age, this paste tends to dry out and introduce ripple current into the inverter’s circuitry leading to failure. The hotter the environment, the higher the risk of electrolytic capacitor failure.

Enphase is one of the few micro inverter companies that still use electrolytic capacitors in their design (yes, the M-215 still uses electrolytics). Micro inverters are typically mounted under the solar panel on a hot roof which makes many in the industry question the life expectancy of micro inverters that use electrolytics. The problem is that even though you have a 25 year warranty, that warranty will not pay for the labor of removing and replacing micro inverters as they fail. SolarEdge converters do not use any electrolytics in their design and they use far less heat generating components which increases their life expectancy. SolarEdge does not use electrolytic capacitors in their under module mounted power optimizers.

An important point to remember is that micro inverters may offer a 25 year warranty but that warranty does not cover the labor costs for removing and replacing failed micro inverters. It is an inescapable fact that all inverters will eventually fail. Unfortunately they won’t all fail at the same time. You may have some micro inverters that will fail at year 11 after your installation warranty expires and a few more may fail at year 13 and a few more at year 16 and and so on.

None of the labor costs for these potential failures after year 10 will be covered by your warranty. And you can expect the cost for an electrician to climb up on to you roof and remove and replace failed micro inverters to be in the neighborhood of $300 to $500 per site visit.

SolarEdge recently announced that they now have over two million of their power optimizers installed worldwide and was recently awarded Intersolar’s prestigious 2012 innovation award in Munich, Germany.

We have been selling SolarEdge as long as we’ve been selling Enphase and have had no SolarEdge failures to date whereas we have experienced multiple Enphase failures.
 
RegGuheert said:
ELROY said:
Supposedly will allow much higher energy yield than the 215 watt Enphase limit.
I doubt it. Perhaps if you live in a very cold climate and are installing panels larger than 260W this might be an issue. Otherwise, it appears the Enphase M215s are more efficient.

I will point out that the Solar Edge central inverter almost certainly contains electrolytic capacitors and it is a single-point failure for the entire system.

Enphase micro inverters are not more efficient. per there own spec sheet they are only rated ay 96% CEC efficiency and 96.3% peak.

SolarEdge is rated at 97.5% CEC efficiency and 98.3% peak.

Also, the Enphase M-215 will not turn on until your module reached 22 volts. The SolarEdge power optimizer will turn on and begin producing power when your modules only reach 5 volts. Resulting in more energy harvest earlier when the Sun rises and later in the day as the Sun is setting.

You are correct, the Enphase system does not have a single point of failure. Instead it has multiple points of failure that are located in one of the most inverter hostile, hard to reach locations imaginable. (On your hot roof, underneath your solar modules) Micro inverter manufacturers cram everything including the MPPT circuitry, the communications circuitry, the inverter circuitry etc. into their airtight boxes and because of the micro inverter's lower efficiency (lower efficiency means that more energy is being wasted as heat) 96.3% peak versus 98.3% peak for SolarEdge, micro inverters are more prone to heat related failures.

I would rather have an easy to access, single point of failure on the ground to replace when an inverter fails than have to climb up on my roof and remove a solar module and the failed micro inverter every time a micro inverter fails. The problem is that they won't all fail at the same time. You may have 2 fail one year and 3 fail the next year and on and on as your micro inverter system ages. Better buy a good quality ladder or be prepared to pay someone to do it for you.
 
Solarpro said:
The SolarEdge inverter and power optimizer combination is a much better buy than micro inverters when it comes to performance and reliability. First of all the Enphase M215 micro inverter is only rated for 215 watts maximum, so even though a typical 250 watt solar panel with a +5% tolerance rating is capable of outputting 5% more than 250 watts you will only get a maximum of 215 watts out from each Enphase inverter. With an average of twenty micro inverters in a typical system, this will be a tremendous loss of power over the life of your system. With a system using SolarEdge power optimizers instead of micro inverters you will have a much greater maximum output rating of 300 watts.

Second, the Enphase 215 is only rated for 96.3 maximum efficiency and a CEC weighted efficiency of 96%. SolarEdge offers a considerably higher peak efficiency rating of 98.3% and a CEC weighted efficiency of 97.5%. This may not seem like a big difference but when you consider the 30 to 40 years life expectancy of your solar panels, the difference in efficiency will add up to considerable amount of power.

Third, the Enphase 215 will only turn on when your shaded panels have reached 22 volts whereas a SolarEdge equipped solar panel will begin producing power with as little as 5 volts which yields better shade protection and better early morning, late afternoon energy harvest.

Fourth, with Enphase, the portal which allows you to connect to the Internet so that you can monitor your solar panel’s individual performance is optional and costs about $500.00 whereas with Solaredge the Internet portal is built in at no additional cost. Also with Enphase you have to purchase their expensive proprietary cabling which costs about $40.00 per inverter. With SolarEdge the cabling is built in at no additional cost.

We’ve been operating a factory authorized inverter repair center for the past 11 years and a common failure that we see involves electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytic capacitors use a semi liquid paste in their design. As electrolytics age, this paste tends to dry out and introduce ripple current into the inverter’s circuitry leading to failure. The hotter the environment, the higher the risk of electrolytic capacitor failure.

Enphase is one of the few micro inverter companies that still use electrolytic capacitors in their design (yes, the M-215 still uses electrolytics). Micro inverters are typically mounted under the solar panel on a hot roof which makes many in the industry question the life expectancy of micro inverters that use electrolytics. The problem is that even though you have a 25 year warranty, that warranty will not pay for the labor of removing and replacing micro inverters as they fail. SolarEdge converters do not use any electrolytics in their design and they use far less heat generating components which increases their life expectancy. SolarEdge does not use electrolytic capacitors in their under module mounted power optimizers.

An important point to remember is that micro inverters may offer a 25 year warranty but that warranty does not cover the labor costs for removing and replacing failed micro inverters. It is an inescapable fact that all inverters will eventually fail. Unfortunately they won’t all fail at the same time. You may have some micro inverters that will fail at year 11 after your installation warranty expires and a few more may fail at year 13 and a few more at year 16 and and so on.

None of the labor costs for these potential failures after year 10 will be covered by your warranty. And you can expect the cost for an electrician to climb up on to you roof and remove and replace failed micro inverters to be in the neighborhood of $300 to $500 per site visit.

I strongly disagree that labor to replace one is that high. My installer can replace one in about 5 minutes. I've watched and I will be able to replace them myself after the.labor warranty expires. So your labor figure seems much exaggerated.

SolarEdge recently announced that they now have over two million of their power optimizers installed worldwide and was recently awarded Intersolar’s prestigious 2012 innovation award in Munich, Germany.

We have been selling SolarEdge as long as we’ve been selling Enphase and have had no SolarEdge failures to date whereas we have experienced multiple Enphase failures.
 
I queried several installers here in California for their (non-warrantied) rates for removal and replacement of a rooftop mounted micro inverter. The service call included: driving to the site, climbing up onto to a single story roof, removing one or more solar modules so that they could access the failed micro inverter, removing and replacing the failed micro inverter and final testing. The average that I found was $300 to $500 per replacement. Cost would of course vary depending on the local labor market. If you can perform the repair yourself, this may not be the safest option, but would definately be your most cost effective option.
 
Solarpro said:
The SolarEdge inverter and power optimizer combination is a much better buy than micro inverters when it comes to performance and reliability. First of all the Enphase M215 micro inverter is only rated for 215 watts maximum, so even though a typical 250 watt solar panel with a +5% tolerance rating is capable of outputting 5% more than 250 watts you will only get a maximum of 215 watts out from each Enphase inverter. With an average of twenty micro inverters in a typical system, this will be a tremendous loss of power over the life of your system. With a system using SolarEdge power optimizers instead of micro inverters you will have a much greater maximum output rating of 300 watts.

Second, the Enphase 215 is only rated for 96.3 maximum efficiency and a CEC weighted efficiency of 96%. SolarEdge offers a considerably higher peak efficiency rating of 98.3% and a CEC weighted efficiency of 97.5%. This may not seem like a big difference but when you consider the 30 to 40 years life expectancy of your solar panels, the difference in efficiency will add up to considerable amount of power.

Third, the Enphase 215 will only turn on when your shaded panels have reached 22 volts whereas a SolarEdge equipped solar panel will begin producing power with as little as 5 volts which yields better shade protection and better early morning, late afternoon energy harvest.

Fourth, with Enphase, the portal which allows you to connect to the Internet so that you can monitor your solar panel’s individual performance is optional and costs about $500.00 whereas with Solaredge the Internet portal is built in at no additional cost. Also with Enphase you have to purchase their expensive proprietary cabling which costs about $40.00 per inverter. With SolarEdge the cabling is built in at no additional cost.

We’ve been operating a factory authorized inverter repair center for the past 11 years and a common failure that we see involves electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytic capacitors use a semi liquid paste in their design. As electrolytics age, this paste tends to dry out and introduce ripple current into the inverter’s circuitry leading to failure. The hotter the environment, the higher the risk of electrolytic capacitor failure.

Enphase is one of the few micro inverter companies that still use electrolytic capacitors in their design (yes, the M-215 still uses electrolytics). Micro inverters are typically mounted under the solar panel on a hot roof which makes many in the industry question the life expectancy of micro inverters that use electrolytics. The problem is that even though you have a 25 year warranty, that warranty will not pay for the labor of removing and replacing micro inverters as they fail. SolarEdge converters do not use any electrolytics in their design and they use far less heat generating components which increases their life expectancy. SolarEdge does not use electrolytic capacitors in their under module mounted power optimizers.

An important point to remember is that micro inverters may offer a 25 year warranty but that warranty does not cover the labor costs for removing and replacing failed micro inverters. It is an inescapable fact that all inverters will eventually fail. Unfortunately they won’t all fail at the same time. You may have some micro inverters that will fail at year 11 after your installation warranty expires and a few more may fail at year 13 and a few more at year 16 and and so on.

None of the labor costs for these potential failures after year 10 will be covered by your warranty. And you can expect the cost for an electrician to climb up on to you roof and remove and replace failed micro inverters to be in the neighborhood of $300 to $500 per site visit.

SolarEdge recently announced that they now have over two million of their power optimizers installed worldwide and was recently awarded Intersolar’s prestigious 2012 innovation award in Munich, Germany.

We have been selling SolarEdge as long as we’ve been selling Enphase and have had no SolarEdge failures to date whereas we have experienced multiple Enphase failures.

Your facts aren't exactly 100% accurate and seem a bit exaggerated to prove your point that SolarEdge is better than Enphase. Another thing to remember is the M215 is a couple/few year old technology now and the next generation model will be released very shortly.

The M215's will put out a maximum of 225 watts even though they are rated at 215 watts. From my observations it takes some really really really optimal conditions for clipping to even happen, let alone be significant issue. Also remember that say a 250 watt panel may only have a 228 watt PTC rating. Also note that the 225 watt output is AC so this is after loss from tilt, orientation, soiling, DC wiring, diodes, panel aging, and of course the inverter itself. I think your assumption is just plain incorrect that connecting a 250 watt panel to a 215w M215 is going to have a significant impact on production, I'd guess that in most cases the inverters will never even clip.

Pretty awesome that SolarEdge has upped the efficiency game! It'll be interesting to see where Enphase comes in at with their next generation microinverter.

Do you have any studies showing what the difference between 22 volts and 5 volt makes? I can't imagine in either case there are very many amps behind the voltage so I doubt we are talking about very much power but as you point out even a little bit over the life of a system can add up.

You are incorrect in stating that Enphase does not cover the labor. In fact they go as far as to cover the labor to replace the failed microinverter AND to pay for the lost production. AFAIC any of the solar installers you called that are quoting those kind of outrageous prices should not be used. Had I not installed the system myself I would expect that the installer replace any failed units for the entire life of the Enphase warranty with the cost being reimbursed to them from Enphase. Will be interesting to see if Mark Davis reads this and responds with his take on this issue as an installer in California who is actually reasonable.

The cost of Enphase wiring is nearly 50% of what you quoted.... As a DIYer the Engage wiring was much easier to work with than having to learn how to properly design and install DC wiring. Being able to add additional panels to the existing branches without having to worry about string sizing, etc. was very nice as well.

The Envoy isn't cheap but you forgot to mention that the full features of the SolarEdge portal are not free and I presume is an annual fee for reporting and alerting. Then the basic monitoring is not free after 25 years.

Actually after rereading their spec sheets I think you might be overstating their efficiency. The optimizer has a CEC Weighted Efficiency of 98.7% and their inverter is 97.5%. Doesn't that mean you are getting more like 96.2% efficiency out of the entire inverter system?

Just for fun I compared the pricing of two systems from Ecodirect. I picked 22x250 watt 5,500 DC watt system. I was surprised to find how similarly priced they are. Obviously as you play with different numbers of panels and system sizes the price differences change but this is just one example.

SE5000A-US 1 1,517.86 1517.86
OP250-LV-MC4SM-2NA 22 77.62 1707.64
Extension from 12 to 25 years 1 469 469
3694.5

M215-60-2LL-S22 22 142.08 3125.76
ET10-240 22 25 550
IEMU-03 with ethernet powerline bridge 1 498.95 498.95
3675.76
 
Solarpro said:
The SolarEdge inverter and power optimizer combination is a much better buy than micro inverters when it comes to performance and reliability. First of all the Enphase M215 micro inverter is only rated for 215 watts maximum, so even though a typical 250 watt solar panel with a +5% tolerance rating is capable of outputting 5% more than 250 watts you will only get a maximum of 215 watts out from each Enphase inverter.
215W is guaranteed, but they limit at 225W. See my previous post earlier in this thread.
Solarpro said:
With an average of twenty micro inverters in a typical system, this will be a tremendous loss of power over the life of your system.
I assume you mean energy rather than power since you say "over the life of your system". In any case, this is a red herring. In reality, you will likely lose less than about 0.5% of your energy production due to this power limit with a 250W panel, less in a warmer climate like CA. That is not a "tremendous loss" in my book.
Solarpro said:
With a system using SolarEdge power optimizers instead of micro inverters you will have a much greater maximum output rating of 300 watts.

Second, the Enphase 215 is only rated for 96.3 maximum efficiency and a CEC weighted efficiency of 96%. SolarEdge offers a considerably higher peak efficiency rating of 98.3% and a CEC weighted efficiency of 97.5%. This may not seem like a big difference but when you consider the 30 to 40 years life expectancy of your solar panels, the difference in efficiency will add up to considerable amount of power.
O.K., it seems efficiency is 1.5% higher. So perhaps 2% better energy harvest when combined with the higher power limit. That's good!
Solarpro said:
Third, the Enphase 215 will only turn on when your shaded panels have reached 22 volts whereas a SolarEdge equipped solar panel will begin producing power with as little as 5 volts which yields better shade protection and better early morning, late afternoon energy harvest.
Sorry, I don't see this as something that would make a difference in most installations.
Solarpro said:
Fourth, with Enphase, the portal which allows you to connect to the Internet so that you can monitor your solar panel’s individual performance is optional and costs about $500.00 whereas with Solaredge the Internet portal is built in at no additional cost. Also with Enphase you have to purchase their expensive proprietary cabling which costs about $40.00 per inverter. With SolarEdge the cabling is built in at no additional cost.
Total system cost is what matters. Which has a lower lifetime cost?
Solarpro said:
We’ve been operating a factory authorized inverter repair center for the past 11 years and a common failure that we see involves electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytic capacitors use a semi liquid paste in their design. As electrolytics age, this paste tends to dry out and introduce ripple current into the inverter’s circuitry leading to failure. The hotter the environment, the higher the risk of electrolytic capacitor failure.
Agreed. As discussed previously, SolarEdge central inverters almost certainly have electrolytic capacitors in them and there are indications that M215 microinverters do not (otherwise they would have the same 15-year life limit that the M190s have). This may be a plus for Enphase.
Solarpro said:
Enphase is one of the few micro inverter companies that still use electrolytic capacitors in their design (yes, the M-215 still uses electrolytics).
Source, please. We have discussed this extensively and we have not been able to find a credible source, only one person who stated that they have moved the 120-Hz filter capacitor from the input to after an initial boost converter, allowing the energy storage to be done with a film capacitor in the M215. Do you have a better source for your assertion?
Solarpro said:
Micro inverters are typically mounted under the solar panel on a hot roof which makes many in the industry question the life expectancy of micro inverters that use electrolytics. The problem is that even though you have a 25 year warranty, that warranty will not pay for the labor of removing and replacing micro inverters as they fail. SolarEdge converters do not use any electrolytics in their design and they use far less heat generating components which increases their life expectancy. SolarEdge does not use electrolytic capacitors in their under module mounted power optimizers.

An important point to remember is that micro inverters may offer a 25 year warranty but that warranty does not cover the labor costs for removing and replacing failed micro inverters. It is an inescapable fact that all inverters will eventually fail. Unfortunately they won’t all fail at the same time. You may have some micro inverters that will fail at year 11 after your installation warranty expires and a few more may fail at year 13 and a few more at year 16 and and so on.
The same discussion applies to the SolarEdge units, plus they have a central inverter that can also fail.
Solarpro said:
None of the labor costs for these potential failures after year 10 will be covered by your warranty. And you can expect the cost for an electrician to climb up on to you roof and remove and replace failed micro inverters to be in the neighborhood of $300 to $500 per site visit.
As mentioned above, both have module-mounted equipment. The only thing that really matters is the relative reliability and relative lifespans.
Solarpro said:
SolarEdge recently announced that they now have over two million of their power optimizers installed worldwide and was recently awarded Intersolar’s prestigious 2012 innovation award in Munich, Germany.
That's good. How many Enphase microinverters have been installed?
Solarpro said:
We have been selling SolarEdge as long as we’ve been selling Enphase and have had no SolarEdge failures to date whereas we have experienced multiple Enphase failures.
That's good information. How many years have you been selling them? What is the current MTBF for your Enphase installations? How many failure-free module-years do you have on the SolarEdge units? I am tracking Enphase microinverters and we have an ongoing discussion in this thread. Feel free to join in there with additional data. I would be interested to see third-party public MTBF tracking of SolarEdge MTBF for comparison's sake. FWIW, NO failures of Enphase M215 microinverters have yet been observed. However, there are several systems with multiple failures of Enphase M190 microinverters. These few systems greatly lower the observed MTBF. It is not clear why the failures are grouped by system. I suspect it is either bad manufacturing batches, poor installations, lightning or some combination of the three.
 
How exactly do you turn on temperature plotting on the enlighten website?

I've had two Enphase inverter failures in 2.5 years of operation. The two failed inverters were adjacent. I think they are M170's but am not sure: the inverter part number is 800-00021-r04.
 
DeaneG said:
How exactly do you turn on temperature plotting on the enlighten website?
See this post and this addition for instructions.

DeaneG said:
I've had two Enphase inverter failures in 2.5 years of operation. The two failed inverters were adjacent. I think they are M170's but am not sure: the inverter part number is 800-00021-r04.
They may be M170s. Mine are M190s and report: 800-00065-r03.
 
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