SageBrush
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:05 pm

philip wrote:
SageBrush wrote:These utility scenarios of energy sources are in flux, and not just from renewables coming online. Currently hydro is running at about the same load throughout the day, and some 20% of CA energy is a mixture of nuclear and coal imports. My guess is that CA will not renew their contracts with the exporters as they expire, and in the near future hydro will be used for the early evening load not covered by PV.

I know that plans in my area of the SW United States are to close some coal plants in the next ~ 5 years and I'm reasonably sure the driver is anticipated drop in exports.


I don't think we import coal power anymore, we do import quite a bit of hydro from the PNW - in fact there is a HVDC line that runs from Washington all the way to LA for this. Pretty interesting circuit if you have time to read up on it- it has the ability to use ocean/ground as a return path. Our in-state nuclear is down to about 2 GWs now, for better or worse...
I cannot vouch for the quality of this reference and it is over a year old, but here you go:

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/a ... -coal-use/

And a correction of my earlier post: My comment that imports are a mixture of nuclear and coal was meant to be limited to imports from the SW US. You are right that Washington supplies hydro sourced electricity, but not too long ago I read an interesting comment from a Washington resident who bemoaned the fact that their local hydro power was diverted to CA, leaving the local utility to supply them with coal based.
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ttweed
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:26 am

philip wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Addendum: Phillips says that the credits car only be used in the same peak/shoulder/night periods they accrued in.


Not sure where I said that - maybe I was unclear somewhere, but, in California, credits generated in one period can be used in another through-out the 1 year true up period.

I think I understand this now--it was just a confusion between "TOU period" (which is daily) and "true-up period" (which is annual). What Philip said was:
The retail amount that is tracked can only be used against energy purchases in the same true up period - if you have a credit at true up, you lose it.
The excess credits that are earned for generation during the various TOU periods each day at retail prices can be applied to any usage during all of the other daily TOU periods during the year, but at the end of the year, when true-up takes place, any excess credits are forfeited--they can't be carried forward into the next year's true-up period. If there is any net generation by the customer during the true-up period, it is then credited at the wholesale generation rate of ~$.04/Kwh.

TT
Tom Tweed
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SageBrush
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:30 am

ttweed wrote:The retail amount that is tracked can only be used against energy purchases in the same true up period - if you have a credit at true up, you lose it. The excess credits that are earned for generation during the various TOU periods each day at retail prices can be applied to any usage during all of the other daily TOU periods during the year, but at the end of the year, when true-up takes place, any excess credits are forfeited--they can't be carried forward into the next year's true-up period. If there is any net generation by the customer during the true-up period, it is then credited at the wholesale generation rate of ~$.04/Kwh.

This sounds exactly right, and thanks for clearing up my error.
Although now I'm left to wonder -- why did you get a $8.8 dollar check ? After all ...
-- No excess generation credit
-- TOU credits are not refunded in cash, only in same year kWh if consumed

:lol: :lol:

By the way,
Those $600 of TOU credits, if they continue for the next ~ 20 years of the array life, almost pay off the array itself. And then all your electricity has been free from day #1. Damn
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ttweed
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:20 am

SageBrush wrote:Although now I'm left to wonder -- why did you get a $8.8 dollar check ? After all ...
-- No excess generation credit
-- TOU credits are not refunded in cash, only in same year kWh if consumed

OK, I finally figured this out. Phillip was right--the $94.01 credit I received on the true-up bill was for additional payments that I made accidentally. What happened was that I have always been on the SDG&E auto-payment plan, where my bills are deducted automatically from my checking account each month. When the solar system was turned on (at the end of March, 2016) and I entered the NEM program, SDG&E did not turn off the auto-payment function, even though I was not required to pay another bill until March, 2017, when the first 12-month true-up period came up. It was 3 months before I noticed that even though the electric bill said "No payment is due at this time," they were still deducting the bill from my checking account automatically. I finally had to call them and ask why they were doing that, and get the autopay function turned off for my electricity, and leave it in place for my gas bill. It seems like this is something they should have done by default, but they don't--you have to ask for it to stop. During those first 3 months on the NEM program, I paid $94.01 for electricity even though I didn't owe them anything, and so they credited it back on the true-up bill. Without that, I would have paid $85.21 for the year (the $120.09 minimum charge for the year less the $34.88 CA Climate Credit). That's how I ended up with the $8.80 credit instead.

By the way,
Those $600 of TOU credits, if they continue for the next ~ 20 years of the array life, almost pay off the array itself. And then all your electricity has been free from day #1. Damn

I wish we could roll over those TOU retail credits to the next year, but we can't. They're gone after true-up. But the good news is that the Climate credit is going up to $58 next year, so if the minimum charge stays the same, I'll only pay about $62 next year for the minimum charge. If I also get the EV climate credit from CARB for the next 4 years, the minimum charge will be cut even further, perhaps even to zero. That's a pretty reasonable price for "renting" the grid for my "storage" of excess generation, I figure. No battery storage pack can compete at that price!

Even if they alter the TOU rates to change the Peak period to the late afternoon/evening, I should still be able to accumulate enough retail credits to offset all my usage in the future, and not have to be shy about charging my car during the day, if needed, or adding more consumption. The system will still pay itself off in less than a decade, which is half it's useful life, so it's money well spent, IMHO. The more that rates go up in the future, the faster it will amortize its cost.

TT
Tom Tweed
La Jolla, CA
Plowshare Media
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1st bar lost at 31,953 miles
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3rd bar lost at 50,711 miles
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sub3marathonman
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:37 pm

ttweed wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Although now I'm left to wonder -- why did you get a $8.8 dollar check ? After all ...
-- No excess generation credit
-- TOU credits are not refunded in cash, only in same year kWh if consumed

OK, I finally figured this out.
...
During those first 3 months on the NEM program, I paid $94.01 for electricity even though I didn't owe them anything, and so they credited it back on the true-up bill. Without that, I would have paid $85.21 for the year (the $120.09 minimum charge for the year less the $34.88 CA Climate Credit). That's how I ended up with the $8.80 credit instead.



And it all makes sense now!

ttweed wrote:
SageBrush wrote:By the way,
Those $600 of TOU credits, if they continue for the next ~ 20 years of the array life, almost pay off the array itself. And then all your electricity has been free from day #1. Damn

I wish we could roll over those TOU retail credits to the next year, but we can't. They're gone after true-up. But the good news is that the Climate credit is going up to $58 next year, so if the minimum charge stays the same, I'll only pay about $62 next year for the minimum charge. If I also get the EV climate credit from CARB for the next 4 years, the minimum charge will be cut even further, perhaps even to zero. That's a pretty reasonable price for "renting" the grid for my "storage" of excess generation, I figure. No battery storage pack can compete at that price!

TT


I'm wondering if people in California can get Solar Renewable Energy Credits for their PV generation. At least then people would be getting something for supplying electricity to the grid. Here in Florida, the electric company requires people to "give" their SREC credits to them. I don't know if there is any market for them, or if the electric company gets anything for them, but still, it just seems to be a bit unfair. At one point, in the right states, they were very valuable.

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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Mon May 22, 2017 9:13 pm

Hi Guys,
So here's my NEM statement. The $101.31 was left over from my first bill period when I was still not turned on officially, but was "paying" for power. I assume that amount will be trued up to 0 at the end of July. I am on NEM 2.0 and was wondering if either my excess kWh or my credit balance will roll over after my true up period ends in July. Based on Tom's information, it looks like I'm in a similar situation where I have excess dollar credits from all the peak time production, but that it may not benefit me really at the year end true up. It sounds like I will just get paid out at $0.04 for excess kWh, and my large dollar credit balance disappears in thin air. I always charge the car at midnight for super off peak rates. Should I care less about charging the car during the day or use more peak time hours? Or, do I incur less "additional charges" or distribution fees by using my peak hours excess production vs using SDGE's super off peak hours? Does it matter one way or the other? I would prefer to rollover kWh or dollars instead of getting paid out at $.04 wholesale rates. A friend of mine on NEM 1.0 said he can rollover kWh year over year, is that right?
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RegGuheert
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue May 23, 2017 9:34 am

Welcome to the forum, sptgolf!
sptgolf wrote:I always charge the car at midnight for super off peak rates. Should I care less about charging the car during the day or use more peak time hours?
I'm not a TOU customer, but I'll take a crack at this.

For all the following calculations, I will make the following two worst-case assumptions:
1) ALL of your electricity usage during super-off-peak times was for the purpose of charging your EV.
2) In the future, you move ALL of your EV charging from super-off-peak times to on-peak times.

If I use these two assumptions and just calculate the cost of your net usage during the year, I come up with the following annual fee:

Summer: $0.49*(-2113+1211) + $0.24*345 = $-359.18
Winter: $0.23*(-1588+1927) + $0.23*(327) = $153.18
Overall: $-206.00

In other words, you would still come out ahead by that calculation. If I throw out August (or replace it with realistic numbers) and add in both June and July then you have an even larger credit. And since my calculation is based on worst-case assumptions, you would actually have an even larger credit. By my estimation, over the course of a normal year, you will be ahead by over $1000, even if you do all of your charging on-peak.

In any case, it certainly makes almost no difference when you charge during the wintertime months (Nov. through Apr.) since the difference in the price of electricity on-peak ($0.23/kWh) is only slightly higher than the super-off-peak rate ($0.20/kWh).
sptgolf wrote:Or, do I incur less "additional charges" or distribution fees by using my peak hours excess production vs using SDGE's super off peak hours?
I cannot imagine that you would incur any additional distribution fees by making the changes I listed, since those changes will result in LESS "distribution" in BOTH directions.
sptgolf wrote:Does it matter one way or the other?
While it does not matter for your specific account, it DOES matter when we consume electricity for the purposes of the utility which is attempting to provide electricity. In fact, that is the raison d'etre for TOU metering. If you would actually move all of your BEV charging from super-off-peak times to on-peak, then you will not be reducing the load on the electricity generators as much during the day as you could be. Moving to off-peak times could be even worse, since the solar-induced "duck curve" causes peak production during the 6:00 PM to 8:00 PM period on sunny days. (I'm not quite sure why SDG&E's TOU rates do not yet reflect this reality.)

Ultimately, as more solar generation is added over time, we will need to find a way to charge BEVs during the daytime in order to absorb the excess production which will occur at those times. And eventually our BEVs will be needed to release some of that energy which was stored in the sunny hours during the evening and nighttime. But those are a couple of bridges which we cannot cross until we get there.
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Wed May 24, 2017 8:42 pm

Thanks very much for the response. So as I understand it, the kWh do not rollover at the end of the true up period, is that correct? I was hoping they rollover but I'm guessing they don't. I went back to read SDG&E's NEM FAQ and it now seems that they convert my kWh at the wholesale rate and either cash that out, or rollover that amount, which won't be much.

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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue May 30, 2017 2:33 pm

sptgolf wrote:Thanks very much for the response. So as I understand it, the kWh do not rollover at the end of the true up period, is that correct? I was hoping they rollover but I'm guessing they don't. I went back to read SDG&E's NEM FAQ and it now seems that they convert my kWh at the wholesale rate and either cash that out, or rollover that amount, which won't be much.


This is correct - you will be credited for the excess kWh's produced at a low wholesale rate.

It appears that your system was sized to zero your usage rather than to minimize your cost (Up-front and recurring). Unfortunately, the solar sales people are either ignorant of time of use, or choose to ignore it to sell systems larger than necessary. The upside is that you won't be impacted much from a shift in time of use periods.

As Reg stated, you could charge during peak without increasing your bill. In fact, if you charge while your solar is producing, you will reduce (rather, increase less) the "Non-bypassable Charges" since you are using your generated power on site and not sending it to the grid and using it later.

RegGuheert wrote:(I'm not quite sure why SDG&E's TOU rates do not yet reflect this reality.)


They proposed to shift the TOU to later in the day a couple years back and the CPUC rejected it (they didn't provide the data to justify the shift at that time). Rate setting is a slow process and they are still working this through - I haven't kept up on it lately, but I believe this will be finalized late this year. Those with residential NET metering are supposed to be grandfathered on the current time of use time periods for a period of five years (not sure if it's from the start of the new TOU period, or if from the interconnect date, but probably the latter).
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue May 30, 2017 3:34 pm

A proposed decision on the TOU issue was released on May 18. Comments are due in a couple of weeks...

http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/E ... 222728.PDF

Highlights of the decision include:

* Adopts a five-month summer season (June-October)
* Adjusts base TOU periods so that the on-peak period is 3-9pm daily
* Extends super off-peak to be midnight to 6am weekdays, adds 10am-2pm super off-peak in March and April. Also extends super off-peak from midnight to 2pm on weekends.

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