SageBrush
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Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:05 pm

philip wrote:
SageBrush wrote:These utility scenarios of energy sources are in flux, and not just from renewables coming online. Currently hydro is running at about the same load throughout the day, and some 20% of CA energy is a mixture of nuclear and coal imports. My guess is that CA will not renew their contracts with the exporters as they expire, and in the near future hydro will be used for the early evening load not covered by PV.

I know that plans in my area of the SW United States are to close some coal plants in the next ~ 5 years and I'm reasonably sure the driver is anticipated drop in exports.


I don't think we import coal power anymore, we do import quite a bit of hydro from the PNW - in fact there is a HVDC line that runs from Washington all the way to LA for this. Pretty interesting circuit if you have time to read up on it- it has the ability to use ocean/ground as a return path. Our in-state nuclear is down to about 2 GWs now, for better or worse...
I cannot vouch for the quality of this reference and it is over a year old, but here you go:

http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/a ... -coal-use/

And a correction of my earlier post: My comment that imports are a mixture of nuclear and coal was meant to be limited to imports from the SW US. You are right that Washington supplies hydro sourced electricity, but not too long ago I read an interesting comment from a Washington resident who bemoaned the fact that their local hydro power was diverted to CA, leaving the local utility to supply them with coal based.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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ttweed
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:26 am

philip wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Addendum: Phillips says that the credits car only be used in the same peak/shoulder/night periods they accrued in.


Not sure where I said that - maybe I was unclear somewhere, but, in California, credits generated in one period can be used in another through-out the 1 year true up period.

I think I understand this now--it was just a confusion between "TOU period" (which is daily) and "true-up period" (which is annual). What Philip said was:
The retail amount that is tracked can only be used against energy purchases in the same true up period - if you have a credit at true up, you lose it.
The excess credits that are earned for generation during the various TOU periods each day at retail prices can be applied to any usage during all of the other daily TOU periods during the year, but at the end of the year, when true-up takes place, any excess credits are forfeited--they can't be carried forward into the next year's true-up period. If there is any net generation by the customer during the true-up period, it is then credited at the wholesale generation rate of ~$.04/Kwh.

TT
Tom Tweed
La Jolla, CA
Plowshare Media
2011 SLe #1317 del. 4/1/11
1st bar lost at 31,953 miles
2nd bar lost at 38,685 miles
3rd bar lost at 50,711 miles
4th bar lost at 59,758 miles after 64 months
Battery replaced at 61,307 miles.

SageBrush
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:30 am

ttweed wrote:The retail amount that is tracked can only be used against energy purchases in the same true up period - if you have a credit at true up, you lose it. The excess credits that are earned for generation during the various TOU periods each day at retail prices can be applied to any usage during all of the other daily TOU periods during the year, but at the end of the year, when true-up takes place, any excess credits are forfeited--they can't be carried forward into the next year's true-up period. If there is any net generation by the customer during the true-up period, it is then credited at the wholesale generation rate of ~$.04/Kwh.

This sounds exactly right, and thanks for clearing up my error.
Although now I'm left to wonder -- why did you get a $8.8 dollar check ? After all ...
-- No excess generation credit
-- TOU credits are not refunded in cash, only in same year kWh if consumed

:lol: :lol:

By the way,
Those $600 of TOU credits, if they continue for the next ~ 20 years of the array life, almost pay off the array itself. And then all your electricity has been free from day #1. Damn
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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ttweed
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Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:20 am

SageBrush wrote:Although now I'm left to wonder -- why did you get a $8.8 dollar check ? After all ...
-- No excess generation credit
-- TOU credits are not refunded in cash, only in same year kWh if consumed

OK, I finally figured this out. Phillip was right--the $94.01 credit I received on the true-up bill was for additional payments that I made accidentally. What happened was that I have always been on the SDG&E auto-payment plan, where my bills are deducted automatically from my checking account each month. When the solar system was turned on (at the end of March, 2016) and I entered the NEM program, SDG&E did not turn off the auto-payment function, even though I was not required to pay another bill until March, 2017, when the first 12-month true-up period came up. It was 3 months before I noticed that even though the electric bill said "No payment is due at this time," they were still deducting the bill from my checking account automatically. I finally had to call them and ask why they were doing that, and get the autopay function turned off for my electricity, and leave it in place for my gas bill. It seems like this is something they should have done by default, but they don't--you have to ask for it to stop. During those first 3 months on the NEM program, I paid $94.01 for electricity even though I didn't owe them anything, and so they credited it back on the true-up bill. Without that, I would have paid $85.21 for the year (the $120.09 minimum charge for the year less the $34.88 CA Climate Credit). That's how I ended up with the $8.80 credit instead.

By the way,
Those $600 of TOU credits, if they continue for the next ~ 20 years of the array life, almost pay off the array itself. And then all your electricity has been free from day #1. Damn

I wish we could roll over those TOU retail credits to the next year, but we can't. They're gone after true-up. But the good news is that the Climate credit is going up to $58 next year, so if the minimum charge stays the same, I'll only pay about $62 next year for the minimum charge. If I also get the EV climate credit from CARB for the next 4 years, the minimum charge will be cut even further, perhaps even to zero. That's a pretty reasonable price for "renting" the grid for my "storage" of excess generation, I figure. No battery storage pack can compete at that price!

Even if they alter the TOU rates to change the Peak period to the late afternoon/evening, I should still be able to accumulate enough retail credits to offset all my usage in the future, and not have to be shy about charging my car during the day, if needed, or adding more consumption. The system will still pay itself off in less than a decade, which is half it's useful life, so it's money well spent, IMHO. The more that rates go up in the future, the faster it will amortize its cost.

TT
Tom Tweed
La Jolla, CA
Plowshare Media
2011 SLe #1317 del. 4/1/11
1st bar lost at 31,953 miles
2nd bar lost at 38,685 miles
3rd bar lost at 50,711 miles
4th bar lost at 59,758 miles after 64 months
Battery replaced at 61,307 miles.

sub3marathonman
Posts: 286
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Delivery Date: 31 Mar 2012
Location: Bartow, FL

Re: SDG&E, Solar, Net Metering, and Time of Use 2 (TOU2)

Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:37 pm

ttweed wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Although now I'm left to wonder -- why did you get a $8.8 dollar check ? After all ...
-- No excess generation credit
-- TOU credits are not refunded in cash, only in same year kWh if consumed

OK, I finally figured this out.
...
During those first 3 months on the NEM program, I paid $94.01 for electricity even though I didn't owe them anything, and so they credited it back on the true-up bill. Without that, I would have paid $85.21 for the year (the $120.09 minimum charge for the year less the $34.88 CA Climate Credit). That's how I ended up with the $8.80 credit instead.



And it all makes sense now!

ttweed wrote:
SageBrush wrote:By the way,
Those $600 of TOU credits, if they continue for the next ~ 20 years of the array life, almost pay off the array itself. And then all your electricity has been free from day #1. Damn

I wish we could roll over those TOU retail credits to the next year, but we can't. They're gone after true-up. But the good news is that the Climate credit is going up to $58 next year, so if the minimum charge stays the same, I'll only pay about $62 next year for the minimum charge. If I also get the EV climate credit from CARB for the next 4 years, the minimum charge will be cut even further, perhaps even to zero. That's a pretty reasonable price for "renting" the grid for my "storage" of excess generation, I figure. No battery storage pack can compete at that price!

TT


I'm wondering if people in California can get Solar Renewable Energy Credits for their PV generation. At least then people would be getting something for supplying electricity to the grid. Here in Florida, the electric company requires people to "give" their SREC credits to them. I don't know if there is any market for them, or if the electric company gets anything for them, but still, it just seems to be a bit unfair. At one point, in the right states, they were very valuable.

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