mbender
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:44 pm

mayo wrote:
Nubo wrote:The prospects of significant number of folks going off grid gives the utility companies nightmares. And the day may come when it's economically feasible even for non-eccentrics. When that day approaches don't be surprised to discover there are suddenly laws or punitive fees against self-sufficient electrical systems.

We already have that here in Oklahoma. The law is in place, now they are working on what fee they will charge. The law says if you use alternative energy they will charge you more. Nice way to promote clean energy. But it's Oklahoma. I'm surprised they don't charge me more for driving a Leaf.

I believe PG&E here in California is considering adding a "grid tie-in fee" for people with solar, and I believe Coloradans with EVs pay a 'fuel tax fee' of $50/year or something like that to make up for the state gasoline taxes that they are avoiding. So it's not just "red" states, and no doubt others will follow in both regards.

I actually feel that both fees are fair, as long as the utility pays an equally fair price for solar-generated electrons during the day. EVs charged by grid-tied solar arrays use both the roads and the grid, after all.
I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

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mayo
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Tue Feb 17, 2015 6:52 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I'm assuming the law applies to grid-tied systems, and not off the grid setups...?


Believe it or not, the the way it is written, if you have a barn on the back forty that's all PV, they have the right to make you pay for what you would be using if not for the PV.
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dgpcolorado
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:44 pm

mbender wrote:...and I believe Coloradans with EVs pay a 'fuel tax fee' of $50/year or something like that to make up for the state gasoline taxes that they are avoiding...
Sort of. The $50 plug-in vehicle fee is $30 to roads and $20 to a charge station grant fund. Also, Colorado has a refundable tax credit of up to $6000 for EVs that doesn't begin to phase out until 2019. So, this state is pretty "pro-EV", to put it mildly. Which is fine by me.
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mbender
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:53 pm

Nice! I live minutes away from a county (technically an Air Quality Management District) here that offers $3,000 on top of the state's $2,500... and I thought that was good. :)
I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

2012 SL (One of the colors): 2-year lease, 2012+,
2015 S w/QC (A different color): 3-year lease, 2014+,
2017 SV (Same color as 2015 S): 3-year lease, 2017+, lower monthly than either above(!)

edatoakrun
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:58 am

Well, here is some speculation on what size batteries Tesla is planning to try to sell you, and the prices it wants to get for them.

That price of ~$13,000 for only ~10 kWh, is why I'm not exactly enthusiastic about trading in my OE Battery pack with a much-larger-than-10 kWh capacity, to Nissan for its generous offer of $1,000, when and if I ever decide to buy a replacement pack for my 2011.

Global Equities Research analyst Trip Chowdhry has revealed some interesting information about Tesla Motors Inc
TSLA's new product line.

Major new Tesla product line -- not a car -- will be unveiled at our Hawthorne Design Studio on Thurs 8pm, April 30

— Elon Musk (@elonmusk) March 30, 2015


Outside of the fact that it will not be a car, very little is known about what Tesla plans to announce. Some experts think it could be a motorcycle. Others assume that it will be an in-home battery that involves solar energy.

If Chowdhry's information is correct...

•"There are about 230 Households in California, who currently have Tesla Stationary Battery installed in their Homes. Another about 100 Households are out of California.
This customer had the Tesla Stationary Battery for about One and a Half years, and is installed in his garage."...

•"The installer offered a choice between 10KWH and 15KWH; he went with 10KWH."

Chowdhry's report also indicates that the 10 kWh battery could be priced at $13,000 with a 50 percent rebate from PG&E Corporation...


http://www.benzinga.com/analyst-ratings ... -consumers
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Nfuzzy
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:14 pm

Only had my solar since Feb, but to answer the subject question, 67 kWh is the absolute minimum battery pack size I would have needed thus far to go off grid and not run out of power for the house+Leaf. (And that is just based on my daily usage vs generation spreadsheet. I imagine inefficiencies would drive the need for a higher number.) I average 26 kWh/day for house+Leaf.

Boggles my mind how much the average household wastes! Enough to drive an EV 1000 miles a month it seems!

I'm amazed at how many people ask me about batteries when they find out I have solar. It makes absolutely no economic sense compared to being grid-tied net-metered.
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dgpcolorado
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Tue Jun 02, 2015 8:41 pm

Nfuzzy wrote:...I'm amazed at how many people ask me about batteries when they find out I have solar. It makes absolutely no economic sense compared to being grid-tied net-metered.
I agree. If the utility allows net-metering — many states require them to do so — it is hard to justify the cost of batteries except for special circumstances. Exceptions would be where electricity is fairly unreliable — batteries to cover outages — or in cases where there are really big time-of-use or demand charge pricing differences. Businesses with a demand rate structure can save a lot by keeping the peak demand level down.
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Nfuzzy
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:30 am

True, batteries make sense in those cases but it still makes more sense to remain grid tied even then.

in addition to the cost argument, I don't understand folks that go off grid to be green. This results in the need for an oversized system that on sunny days is producing way more than you use or even store which would otherwise be going out on the grid to offset other dirty sources of power.
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edatoakrun
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:03 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
Nfuzzy wrote:...I'm amazed at how many people ask me about batteries when they find out I have solar. It makes absolutely no economic sense compared to being grid-tied net-metered.
I agree. If the utility allows net-metering — many states require them to do so — it is hard to justify the cost of batteries...


I think it is common for beneficiaries of net-metering to underestimate the costs they impose on other utility ratepayers, which in fact are substantial.

A nearby municipal utility is proposing to raise the monthly access fees to $42 (and hints of much higher monthly fees coming the future) justifying the charge partly as a means to recover costs from customers who only use the grid as their battery.

See page 10:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentclo ... tation.pdf

While REU's PV customers are upset about this plan, the much more numerous low-use grid customers will really be taking a hit.

Imagine having to pay ~$80 a month for ~200 kWh...
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dgpcolorado
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Re: What Size Battery Would You Need to Power Your House?

Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:52 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:I agree. If the utility allows net-metering — many states require them to do so — it is hard to justify the cost of batteries...

I think it is common for beneficiaries of net-metering to underestimate the costs they impose on other utility ratepayers, which in fact are substantial.

A nearby municipal utility is proposing to raise the monthly access fees to $42 (and hints of much higher monthly fees coming the future) justifying the charge partly as a means to recover costs from customers who only use the grid as their battery.

See page 10:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentclo ... tation.pdf

While REU's PV customers are upset about this plan, the much more numerous low-use grid customers will really be taking a hit.

Imagine having to pay ~$80 a month for ~200 kWh...
This has been much debated in other threads. My local co-op estimates the infrastructure cost at about $25/month per meter for our system. And that is for a rural, very mountainous, power grid with 13,500 meters spread over hundreds of square miles. That being the case, I am skeptical that $42 is a fair distribution of grid infrastructure costs for a more densely populated area with much greater economies of scale than we have here. But perhaps their costs of doing business are much higher there than here.

Yes, some sort of infrastructure fee seems reasonable for net-metering customers. But it should be a fair distribution of costs, as opposed to a scheme to just make net-metering cost-prohibitive. It should be obvious that if electric utilities raise the fixed service charge too high they risk forcing net-metering customers to go off-grid using batteries, such as Tesla's Powerwall. And then the utility faces a "death-spiral" of fewer, usually poorer, customers facing higher costs to support the grid. That doesn't really benefit anybody.
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