Tesla Powerwall

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LTLFTcomposite

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http://www.cnbc.com/id/102637763" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The pricing is attractive. Not sure how this helps with EVs though; you'd still be reliant on buying off peak power for charging.
 
This doesn't look nearly as cool as first thought, the specs say it doesn't include an inverter. I was hoping for a "just add solar panels" solution.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
This doesn't look nearly as cool as first thought, the specs say it doesn't include an inverter. I was hoping for a "just add solar panels" solution.
No, it's not a complete solution as is and that's not unexpected. An off-grid building needs two bits of electronics - a battery charger that interfaces the PV panels to the battery, and an inverter that sits between the battery and the house's 120V and possibly 240VAC grid. The vast majority of people with grid-tied PV have an interface between the PV and power grid that only works when the sun's shining and cannot work with a battery - so there's no load-shifting or backup power.

I'm interested in learning the retail price for one of these boxes. The wholesale price for a complete unit is less expensive than the retail price for a box of LiFePO4 cells of similar capacity...and the LiFePO4 still needs interconnects, management, and won't have web management or smart grid interoperability.
 
For home installations I can't imagine it competing with lead acid for cost per watt. We have 18 kwh of lead acid that was $1800, its not that large of floor space, but weighs a couple of tons, but it does require some periodic maintenance, I miss our AGM's :)

I do wonder if someone like Schneider (Xantrex) will come up with a grid tie inverter with these batteries in mind, a plug and play setup. Then you could have a grid tie inverter system and then if you choose to add these you now have grid tie with backup and load shifting or peak shaving potential.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Supposedly $3500 for 10 kwh
I thought I heard Elon say the $3500 was for 'installers' and assumed wholesale. I see on the Powerwall site, though, that it's listed as $3500 without qualifiers.

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

I got a chuckle out of this:
Both are guaranteed for ten years and are sufficient to power most homes during peak evening hours

The 10kWh model will run an efficient off-grid house for 2.3 days...
 
I'm interested. A single 10 KWH battery would work for me as a home backup power source, but the key for me is the ability to recharge it from my solar system when the grid is down. Since I have a grid tied system I would need a transfer capability to switch from the grid to the battery when the grid is down. In order to make my inverters work, the battery will also have to fool the inverters into thinking they are still tied to the grid by supplying a 240 VAC, 60 Hertz waveform to synchronize with.

Anyone know if this battery can do this?
 
Sounds like they probably are using the same battery design they do in the S:

...The packs contain all the integrated safety systems, the liquid thermal control...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150501-tesla.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IMO, LTC/ATM is generally a bad idea for BEVs, and perhaps even more of a disadvantage in small-scale stationary installations.

The prices are pretty cheap per unit, but remember, the vast majority of buyers will need to install multiple units in their installations, to power conventional high-kWh demand homes when the sun isn't out, or when the grid is down.

An S owner who buys ~10 of these so they can do a mid-day Summer recharge with off-peak kWh, is going to have one hot garage...
 
$350 per kWh is the real news.
Beats the few competitors out there by quite a bit.

Does pretty clearly show that Nissan's $250 per kWh replacement heat resistant pack with trade-in is at least somewhat below production cost.

Yes, lead acid is cheaper.
But only a small part of the real world limited market for home energy storage is willing to put up with the space and maintenance requirements of lead acid.

Powerwall seems pretty incomplete without inverter system readily available that automatically switches between on grid and off grid.
Maybe Tesla is using the "build it and they will come" approach :?:

Does Power wall have a temperature control system :?:
Is it OK to use it in your 120F garage in Phoenix :?:
Or even your Chattanooga garage that sometimes hits 105F :?:
 
edatoakrun said:
Sounds like they probably are using the same battery design they do in the S:

...The packs contain all the integrated safety systems, the liquid thermal control...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150501-tesla.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IMO, LTC/ATM is generally a bad idea for BEVs, and perhaps even more of a disadvantage in small-scale stationary installations.

The prices are pretty cheap per unit, but remember, the vast majority of buyers will need to install multiple units in their installations, to power conventional high-kWh demand homes when the sun isn't out, or when the grid is down.

An S owner who buys ~10 of these so they can do a mid-day Summer recharge with off-peak kWh, is going to have one hot garage...
It wouldn't make good business sense to not use the same battery design. Why do you think that liquid thermal management is a bad idea for BEVs and 'home' use? Musk says the box can be attached to an outside wall...Having lived in Tucson, I know those outside walls can be really toasty...and my San Antonio garage stays above 100°F for more than 3 months each summer...before adding any additional heat...
 
BrockWI said:
I do wonder if someone like Schneider (Xantrex) will come up with a grid tie inverter with these batteries in mind, a plug and play setup. Then you could have a grid tie inverter system and then if you choose to add these you now have grid tie with backup and load shifting or peak shaving potential.
Right, but it's all more components, more labor to install, more to explain to people. What's the point of having the battery in a pretty box painted to match your car if you have a maze of conduit running to other boxes and such? It could have been one box, with one conduit running to the panels and another to a transfer switch box sort of like a generac home backup generator.

Instead of simplifying, cost reducing, and demystifying solar for the public they just made it worse.
 
Maybe there's room for the 10 year warranty to evolve as well as the price.

Other energy storage companies have conducted similar tests, but only Younicos' system has thus far achieved a 20-year warranty from a major lithium-cell producer, Samsung of South Korea, according to professor Michael Sterner, who co-directs the Research Centre for Energy Networks and Energy Storage at the Technical University of Regensburg.
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060017529
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
BrockWI said:
I do wonder if someone like Schneider (Xantrex) will come up with a grid tie inverter with these batteries in mind, a plug and play setup. Then you could have a grid tie inverter system and then if you choose to add these you now have grid tie with backup and load shifting or peak shaving potential.
Right, but it's all more components, more labor to install, more to explain to people. What's the point of having the battery in a pretty box painted to match your car if you have a maze of conduit running to other boxes and such? It could have been one box, with one conduit running to the panels and another to a transfer switch box sort of like a generac home backup generator.

Instead of simplifying, cost reducing, and demystifying solar for the public they just made it worse.
A backup generator performs the same function as the DC-AC inverter does today. The battery replaces the generator's fuel tank/natural gas feed. Nothing complex about this stuff at all.
 
Some of Tesla's competition is already experienced in these markets...

A big test for Younicos is its entrance into the U.S. electricity market, which has the potential for a third of all large-scale energy storage applications.

By acquiring the assets of Xtreme Power in a bankruptcy auction in early 2014, Younicos got off to a fast start, gaining access to 60 MW of up-and-running grid-scale battery storage projects at Duke Energy Corp.'s 36-MW Notrees wind farm in Texas. In total, the company now manages 100 MW of installed capacity spread across 22 projects, according to Philip Hiersemenzel, a Younicos press spokesman.
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060017529
 
TimLee said:
$350 per kWh is the real news.
Beats the few competitors out there by quite a bit.

Does pretty clearly show that Nissan's $250 per kWh replacement heat resistant pack with trade-in is at least somewhat below production cost.

:?:


I'm not sure it shows anything more than Tesla charges more. It can also show Nissan has lower costs and better economies of scale. Comparing the cost of two different battery types, configs and from two different makers does not draw any concrete conclusions. Let's see what Apple decides to use in their 200 mile autonomous car...
 
AndyH said:
It wouldn't make good business sense to not use the same battery design. Why do you think that liquid thermal management is a bad idea for BEVs and 'home' use? Musk says the box can be attached to an outside wall...Having lived in Tucson, I know those outside walls can be really toasty...and my San Antonio garage stays above 100°F for more than 3 months each summer...before adding any additional heat...

It seemed to me that he was saying the unit is intended to be mounted on an outside wall. Led me to think there is some heat-sink, heat-exchange or ducting involved. Or maybe it's just a structural thing as outside walls are naturally load-bearing walls...
 
Nubo said:
AndyH said:
It wouldn't make good business sense to not use the same battery design. Why do you think that liquid thermal management is a bad idea for BEVs and 'home' use? Musk says the box can be attached to an outside wall...Having lived in Tucson, I know those outside walls can be really toasty...and my San Antonio garage stays above 100°F for more than 3 months each summer...before adding any additional heat...

It seemed to me that he was saying the unit is intended to be mounted on an outside wall. Led me to think there is some heat-sink, heat-exchange or ducting involved. Or maybe it's just a structural thing as outside walls are naturally load-bearing walls...

The other side of an outside wall is an inside wall so there is no difference as they are all the same. Inside walls can also be load bearing but that is irrelevant to mounting this, in fact it means more load is already on the wall. The ability to mount outside provides flexibility when there is no space otherwise. Many connection points are far from places with space to mount. Distributed power systems and micro-production are the future for load balancing and new models of power use. AC Propulsion had this figured out years ago with their EV system with the grid-tied charger/inverter, the motor was the starting basis for the first Teslas.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Nubo said:
AndyH said:
It wouldn't make good business sense to not use the same battery design. Why do you think that liquid thermal management is a bad idea for BEVs and 'home' use? Musk says the box can be attached to an outside wall...Having lived in Tucson, I know those outside walls can be really toasty...and my San Antonio garage stays above 100°F for more than 3 months each summer...before adding any additional heat...

It seemed to me that he was saying the unit is intended to be mounted on an outside wall. Led me to think there is some heat-sink, heat-exchange or ducting involved. Or maybe it's just a structural thing as outside walls are naturally load-bearing walls...

The other side of an outside wall is an inside wall so there is no difference as they are all the same. Inside walls can also be load bearing but that is irrelevant to mounting this, in fact it means more load is already on the wall. The ability to mount outside provides flexibility when there is no space otherwise. Many connection points are far from places with space to mount. Distributed power systems and micro-production are the future for load balancing and new models of power use. AC Propulsion had this figured out years ago with their EV system with the grid-tied charger/inverter, the motor was the starting basis for the first Teslas.

Hmm... I took it to mean using the inside of an outside wall. I.e., the other side is the outdoors. :)
 
AndyH said:
Nothing complex about this stuff at all.
That's a technologically privileged view. Home solar is great for hobbyists and nerds and that's what needs to change. IMO Tesla didn't go far enough here to create an offering with mainstream appeal.
 
="EVDRIVER"
...The other side of an outside wall is an inside wall so there is no difference as they are all the same...
One difference, which would appear to preclude outside installation in some climates:

...The POWERWALL units are rated for indoor or outdoor installation, and operate in the range of -4°F to 110°F...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05/20150501-tesla.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
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