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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:13 am

SageBrush wrote:
Lothsahn wrote: The interesting part is most Americans do, as long as everyone else has to as well.

That must be why Trumpers favor a carbon tax.

Oh wait .. never mind.


The need to inject the word Trump into every single discussion is tiresome. Take a break from Colbert and Maddow for a couple days, it'll do wonders for your mental health. :D

Lothsahn is right in so far as polling (for what it's worth) confirms broad support a "revenue neutral" carbon tax ... but things have a way of getting testy when it comes time to split up the pot of money generated. That is one of the main roadblocks to new taxes in general, taxpayers often feel like the taxes never end up getting used to directly address the problems that justify the tax in the first place. We've seen the bait and switch used too many times.

IIRC it was the various "Justice" groups that refused to get behind the carbon tax in Washington State a few years back because it was revenue neutral, "business friendly", and didn't "redistribute" the money where they thought it should.

I'd gladly support a carbon tax that used the revenue to directly fund carbon reducing practices and technology but I've yet to see any such proposal gain traction. My choices right now seem to be using the revenue for "social justice" (whatever that is specifically I haven't been able to determine) or denial of the problem completely...
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:22 am

golfcart wrote:IIRC it was the various "Justice" groups that refused to get behind the carbon tax in Washington State a few years back because it was revenue neutral, "business friendly", and didn't "redistribute" the money where they thought it should.


The fact that it was a large net tax cut of $225 million per year probably had more to do with it. Schools were already short funding.

It was sold as being revenue neutral, but cut more in other taxes than it would have collected, and then gave even more away as a rebate. In spite of this, it carried the liberal precincts, and lost very badly in the conservative precincts.

https://yeson732.org/732-election-results-summary/

http://results.vote.wa.gov/results/2016 ... ounty.html

I'm aware that attempts have been and are being made to rewrite history. Don't be fooled. The vote distribution speaks for truth. King Country is majority Democratic. I732 carried King County. Spokane County is majority Republican. I732 lost there with 32% of the vote.
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golfcart
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:33 am

WetEV wrote:
golfcart wrote:IIRC it was the various "Justice" groups that refused to get behind the carbon tax in Washington State a few years back because it was revenue neutral, "business friendly", and didn't "redistribute" the money where they thought it should.


The fact that it was a large net tax cut of $225 million per year probably had more to do with it. Schools were already short funding.

It was sold as being revenue neutral, but cut more in other taxes than it would have collected, and then gave even more away as a rebate. In spite of this, it carried the liberal precincts, and lost very badly in the conservative precincts.

https://yeson732.org/732-election-results-summary/

http://results.vote.wa.gov/results/2016 ... ounty.html

I'm aware that attempts have been and are being made to rewrite history. Don't be fooled. The vote distribution speaks for truth. King Country is majority Democratic. I732 carried King County. Spokane County is majority Republican. I732 lost there with 32% of the vote.


I didn't say anything partisan I said that various "Justice" groups refused to get behind it. Nothing you said refutes that. Did the following groups support the measure?

Sierra Club
Washington Environmental Council
Union of Concerned Scientists
Climate Solutions
350Seattle.org
NAACP
Latino Community Fund

If they did not, why did they say that they didn't? Do those reasons align reasonably well with what I said? If so then what is your disagreement?

My overall point is not too start a partisan battle, just to show that people can be generally supportive of things but the details often prove difficult to agree on.
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:54 am

golfcart wrote:
WetEV wrote:
golfcart wrote:IIRC it was the various "Justice" groups that refused to get behind the carbon tax in Washington State a few years back because it was revenue neutral, "business friendly", and didn't "redistribute" the money where they thought it should.


The fact that it was a large net tax cut of $225 million per year probably had more to do with it. Schools were already short funding.

It was sold as being revenue neutral, but cut more in other taxes than it would have collected, and then gave even more away as a rebate. In spite of this, it carried the liberal precincts, and lost very badly in the conservative precincts.

https://yeson732.org/732-election-results-summary/

http://results.vote.wa.gov/results/2016 ... ounty.html

I'm aware that attempts have been and are being made to rewrite history. Don't be fooled. The vote distribution speaks for truth. King Country is majority Democratic. I732 carried King County. Spokane County is majority Republican. I732 lost there with 32% of the vote.


I didn't say anything partisan I said that various "Justice" groups refused to get behind it. Nothing you said refutes that. Did the following groups support the measure?

Sierra Club

You should ask why? This is the compelling argument, but not the whole Sierra Club statement.

There remains justifiable concern about I-732's revenue projections. While I-732 was intended to be revenue neutral, the State Department of Revenue predicts I-732 will result in about $200 million of lost revenue per year in its first four years.

Washington Environmental Council

Again, why?

Despite the initiative’s intent to be revenue neutral, the state Office of Financial Management has analyzed the policy and found that enacting it would create a $797 million hole over the next three biennia in the already insufficient state budget. That’s over $130 million every year, at a time when the state is struggling to pay for vital services and public education. This budget hole would increase burdens on vulnerable populations, and reduce dollars for enforcing existing environmental laws, not to mention preventing needed investments in transitioning to clean energy.

Union of Concerned Scientists

Took no position.

Under these circumstances, we decided that this is a debate that should be settled by Washingtonians.

Climate Solutions

Number one reason to oppose was revenue negative.

1. It is revenue negative: Rather than being revenue neutral as intended, I-732 would create nearly a $1 billion hole in the state budget over the next four years. This deficit threatens to pit funding for climate against public education, social services, and other vital government services. The passage of I-732 could lead to reduced public services, deepening the challenges for vulnerable people

350Seattle.org

I can't find the full pre-election statement. They did endorse it, then reverse after the budget shortfall and other issues became apparent.

NAACP
Latino Community Fund


Sorry, but I'm not very aware of either of these organizations policies or positions on climate change. A short DuckDuckGo session didn't help.

golfcart wrote:If they did not, why did they say that they didn't? Do those reasons align reasonably well with what I said? If so then what is your disagreement?

The budget shortfall. You called it "revenue neutral". It wasn't revenue neutral. Sure, you can find other reasons. But that was the most persuasive for many of the people I talked to.

The parts of the state that voted against I-732 are not heavily influenced by any of these organizations. The reasons why Republicans voted against this are:

1) It is a tax.
2) It paid rebates to low income people and they didn't earn them.
3) Global warming is a Chinese plot. Or something similar.
4) It isn't revenue neutral, so might cause the state to pass an income tax to get out of the fiscal crisis made worse by I732.

The last point almost makes sense.

And remember that this passed in the Democratic areas. And failed badly in Republican areas.

Disclosure: I voted for, donated money to, and campaigned for I732.
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:25 am

golfcart wrote:I didn't say anything partisan


Actually you did. You blamed the defeat on "justice" groups.

Remember that the Democratic areas and voters supported this and the Republican areas and voters didn't.

Don't blame Nixon on Massachusetts.
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golfcart
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:35 am

WetEV wrote:
golfcart wrote:I didn't say anything partisan


Actually you did. You blamed the defeat on "justice" groups.

Remember that the Democratic areas and voters supported this and the Republican areas and voters didn't.

Don't blame Nixon on Massachusetts.


That's not partisan and I didn't blame the defeat on "Justice" groups... I made the assertion to show that advocacy groups who most would think are supportive of such a measure were not supportive because they disagreed with how the revenue would be used.
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golfcart
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:43 am

So you agree that none of those groups supported the bill... I'm glad we're on the same page.

WetEV wrote:You should ask why? This is the compelling argument, but not the whole Sierra Club statement.


Your point is taken but you are cherry picking the parts that you paste in. There Sierra club also said:

Communities of color and low-income people are almost always the ones most impacted by pollution and climate change, and as a result they need to be at the front and center of discussions for how to address the problem and mitigate the impacts of both climate change and environmental policy. That wasn't the approach taken by I-732. As a result, the initiative fails to affirmatively address any of the stated needs of those communities: more investment in green jobs, energy efficiency, transit, housing, and renewable energy infrastructure.


I also read that people quit the Sierra club over their refusal to endorse the plan.

You're honestly blowing this whole thing way out of proportion off of what was a simple statement about the difficulty of finding consensus.

Was I a little snarky with my example?? Sure I was... After reading a bunch of Sage's posts sometimes I want to act like a douchebag too. But my point remains that there are very few plans that aim to solve the problem by just addressing the problem... at the end of the day that bill would have worked to reduce carbon emissions yet many groups who strongly support that goal did not support the bill. Some of that opposition, as you have pointed out, was over concerns that the bill would produce a budget shortfall... But much of the opposition was also because people instead wanted a bill that would let them use the revenue for initiatives not directly related to the reduction of carbon emissions.
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SageBrush
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:01 am

golfcart wrote: I want to act like a douchebag .

You say you support paying for pollution.
Whom did you vote for in recent state and national elections ?

Care to point to polls that show that Trumpers favor a carbon tax ?
I pulled this from a NYT article
An NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll recently asked people if they believed climate change is “serious” and requires “immediate action.” Only around 15 percent of Republicans said yes compared with 71 percent of Democrats.

So if 85% of generic Repukes are morons, what is your guess for Trumpers ?
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golfcart
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:02 pm

SageBrush wrote:Care to point to polls that show that Trumpers favor a carbon tax ?


There u go with the Trump nonsense again... like a broken record. I didn't vote for him so quit trying to use him to dismiss things I say...

What I did actually say was:

Lothsahn is right in so far as polling (for what it's worth) confirms broad support a "revenue neutral" carbon tax


It's not hard to find information to support that assertion. There's a nice poll done by Yale that backs up exactly what I said. I'll even pull out the relevant sentences but feel free to read the whole thing.

https://climatecommunication.yale.edu/publications/politics-global-warming-november-2016/7/

Two in three registered voters (66%) support requiring fossil fuel companies to pay a carbon tax and using the money to reduce other taxes (such as income tax) by an equal amount – a plan often referred to as a “revenue neutral carbon tax.”
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:29 pm

golfcart wrote:It's not hard to find information to support that assertion. There's a nice poll done by Yale that backs up exactly what I said. I'll even pull out the relevant sentences but feel free to read the whole thing.


The details matter here, as WetEV tried to point out to you. There is overwhelming support for addressing AGW in the progressive camp, strong support among Democrats, middling support among 'independents,' piss-poor support among Republicans of all flavors, and I'll leave it to you to guess where Trumpers stand. Every vote for a Repuke politician ends up being support for AGW denial because the strong majority of that party are in AGW denial.

It is not by chance that Trump says that AGW is a hoax and that he supports coal subsidy. He KNOWS his base. From the Yale study:

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