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TonyWilliams
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Sun May 05, 2013 9:17 am

RePo wrote:What's the high altitude problem with the charger? I can't see where air density would have any effect. This car should work on the moon!


Thinner air gives less medium to transfer heat.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Sun May 05, 2013 9:41 am

Nissan stated that this initial rollout (implies that another round of QC's might be in our future?) would be a smarter deployment which is basically another way of enticing sales in areas that have not sold as much as Nissan may have hoped?

they also said that offering the LEAF at certain dealerships was a mistake and yes, Montana was used as an example. Venturing to say that outside the Denver metro area or any other major metro area, that the likelihood of a charger would be slim unless you are lucky enough to be between two LEAF hotbeds
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
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kovalb
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Sun May 05, 2013 10:37 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
RePo wrote:What's the high altitude problem with the charger? I can't see where air density would have any effect. This car should work on the moon!


Thinner air gives less medium to transfer heat.

The actual reason many DC quick chargers cannot operate at higher altitudes is Paschen’s law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen%27s_law. Arcing can occur. The Japan made DC quick chargers, I am aware of, are only rated to 1,000m altitude because that is all CHAdeMO requires. ECOtality's Blink is rated to 2,000m and exceeds the CHAdeMO requirement. It may be possible to have a DC-QC operate at higher altitude by de-rating it by having it charge at a slower rate.
Had six Nissan LEAFs in five years. Hope to get another.
Retired Nissan Employee (NTCNA-AZ). Opinions expressed here are my own.

cgaydos
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Sun May 05, 2013 11:14 am

kovalb wrote:The actual reason many DC quick chargers cannot operate at higher altitudes is Paschen’s law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen%27s_law. Arcing can occur. The Japan made DC quick chargers, I am aware of, are only rated to 1,000m altitude because that is all CHAdeMO requires. ECOtality's Blink is rated to 2,000m and exceeds the CHAdeMO requirement. It may be possible to have a DC-QC operate at higher altitude by de-rating it by having it charge at a slower rate.


Thanks, I had no idea. So if somehow I could justify buying a personal QC station I shouldn't anyway, at least given what is currently available, as we are at 7400 ft. That QC port on my LEAFs is seeming more and more like a waste of space.
Red Leaf: 2012 SL, lease, acquired 21 November 2012
Blue Leaf: 2011 SL, purchase (new, was dealer demo), acquired 4 March 2013

TimLee
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Sun May 05, 2013 11:36 am

kovalb wrote:The actual reason many DC quick chargers cannot operate at higher altitudes is Paschen’s law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen%27s_law. Arcing can occur. The Japan made DC quick chargers, I am aware of, are only rated to 1,000m altitude because that is all CHAdeMO requires. ECOtality's Blink is rated to 2,000m and exceeds the CHAdeMO requirement. It may be possible to have a DC-QC operate at higher altitude by de-rating it by having it charge at a slower rate.

Excellent and informative response :D :D . The difference in heat transfer capability at high altitude is relatively modest, and clearly should be allowed for in the design. But the difference on arc length, the Paschen law is significant.
But MOST equipment sold in the US could be used anywhere, such as Denver, and needs to be designed for this.
Why did Blink choose a more conservative 2000m, much better than the 1000m in the Japanese standard, but still short of what is needed for the continental US?

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
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GRA
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Sun May 05, 2013 3:08 pm

TimLee wrote:
kovalb wrote:The actual reason many DC quick chargers cannot operate at higher altitudes is Paschen’s law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschen%27s_law. Arcing can occur. The Japan made DC quick chargers, I am aware of, are only rated to 1,000m altitude because that is all CHAdeMO requires. ECOtality's Blink is rated to 2,000m and exceeds the CHAdeMO requirement. It may be possible to have a DC-QC operate at higher altitude by de-rating it by having it charge at a slower rate.

Excellent and informative response :D :D . The difference in heat transfer capability at high altitude is relatively modest, and clearly should be allowed for in the design. But the difference on arc length, the Paschen law is significant.
But MOST equipment sold in the US could be used anywhere, such as Denver, and needs to be designed for this.
Why did Blink choose a more conservative 2000m, much better than the 1000m in the Japanese standard, but still short of what is needed for the continental US?

I imagine it was a cost issue. 2,000m (6,562 ft.) covers all the major metropolitan areas in the U.S., and they may have figured that short-range BEVs were ill-suited to use in mountainous and often very cold rural areas of the country in any case, owners like dgpcolorado being the exception. But I can think of many main roads and routes to ski resorts or through routes across the Rockies and Sierra Nevada (I think the Cascades are probably okay) where 2,000 m is not enough, and 2,500m (8,202') or even 3,000m (9,843 ft') would be needed.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GREENEV
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Mon May 06, 2013 7:52 am

None in the Phoenix area? What! I'm shocked. Nissan should be kissing the rear ends of every LEAF owner in Phoenix especially after the class action lawsuit that was filed regarding the battery degradation.



LEAFfan wrote:Be thankful you're getting them in 6 mos. We are getting none at all ten dealers in the Phoenix area.
2012 LEAF: Glacier Pearl SL
Delivered 1-14-12
20,000 Miles as of 9/2014
26,000 Miles as of 8/2015

GREENEV
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Mon May 06, 2013 7:55 am

Hi Tony,
Sorry, I thought I heard(assumed) San Diego County Nissan Dealers were getting Nissan DCQC's.

Are you saying eight Nissan dealers in San Diego have turned down the free DCQC's?





TonyWilliams wrote:
GREENEV wrote:Congrats? I'm not holding my breath. Nissan DCQC in Colorado may never come to fruition. Besides, you live in San Diego and will soon have plenty of Nissan DCQC's to chose from.



I will ? Where? The 8 Nissan's dealer have (as far as I know) turned down the "free" chargers.

Also, I haven't owned a LEAF since Nov 2012.
2012 LEAF: Glacier Pearl SL
Delivered 1-14-12
20,000 Miles as of 9/2014
26,000 Miles as of 8/2015

kovalb
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Mon May 06, 2013 8:51 am

GREENEV wrote:None in the Phoenix area? What! I'm shocked. Nissan should be kissing the rear ends of every LEAF owner in Phoenix especially after the class action lawsuit that was filed regarding the battery degradation.

LEAFfan wrote:Be thankful you're getting them in 6 mos. We are getting none at all ten dealers in the Phoenix area.

Although more DC-QCs would be welcomed, we already have quite a few that were installed by ECOtality, and are currently no cost to use. We will be seeing even more in Phoenix as Fry's Grocery announced they will be installing quite a few Blink DC-QCs shortly. :)
Had six Nissan LEAFs in five years. Hope to get another.
Retired Nissan Employee (NTCNA-AZ). Opinions expressed here are my own.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: FYI: NISSAN DC FAST CHARGERS UPDATE

Mon May 06, 2013 10:46 am

GREENEV wrote:Hi Tony,
Sorry, I thought I heard(assumed) San Diego County Nissan Dealers were getting Nissan DCQC's.

Are you saying eight Nissan dealers in San Diego have turned down the free DCQC's?



There are only two owners for 8 dealers. To my knowledge (which may not be accurate), none have accepted "free" chargers.

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