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Nubo
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:41 am

SageBrush wrote:
Nubo wrote:Yes, the bar was set too low from the start. A demonstrable "electric highway" is important psychologically long before it's widely used.

Seems like a fair argument if funds are unlimited.


WA and OR managed it though, while CA dawdled.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

GRA
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Tue Sep 25, 2018 6:09 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:So, for Bay Area residents, putting a QC in Groveland or some point east of it makes it possible to visit Yosemite and return with just one QC stop along the way (each way)

Take a closer look at a map, and remember that charging past 70% SoC or so is *really* slow, and Yosemite has poor or non-existent charging facilities. Starting at the midway point and ending there is ~ 200 miles not counting any driving around in the park.

Not. Going. To. Happen

I've not only looked at the map, I've run the trip numerous times on EVTriplanner with Model S60s as well as Model 3s. Groveland is about 116 miles and ca. 3,000 ft. above me and worst case a Model 3SR (assumes 55kWh) uses 123 rated miles. Groveland to Lee Vining is 91 miles, i.e. in a Model 3 SR to do the 182 miles round trip takes from 98 to about 140 rated miles (because of the thousands of feet of descent coming back) - the latter number is based on 1.0 speed factor, 32 deg,. outside and 72 deg. inside temps, and 1,000 lb. load, which represents a fall trip with a full load (but no headwinds or rain). That falls into the yellow section (will probably make it) of a Model 3SR's range, assuming start at 80% charge and 15% reserve. At 85% or higher, it's in the green (will make it). The S60, being a lot heavier uses more energy; the Bolt's about 270 lb. lighter than a Model 3 SR, and while draggier, speeds are low (max. limit 45) in Yosemite. The Niro and Kona are both less draggy than the Bolt and have another ~ 20 miles AER, so it should be correspondingly easier for them. Stopping for a meal in Groveland allows ample time to charge to 80% or more from 45 or 55% SoC, which would be the arrival SoC assuming start SoC at home of 90%.

CEC also plans to put in a QC about 20 miles east of Groveland, which is in even better position from the Bay Area and Lee Vining, but last I saw they were only planning to put one there, which means it's an opportunity charger only.

As to Yosemite Valley, that's doable now roundtrip un-recharged via Hwy 140 in a Bolt from existing eVgo QCs along Hwy 99 in Atwater, without needing to use any of the chargers (two J1772 + one Tesla dest.) in the Valley. You would want to charge to 90% for full load, late fall conditions. For that matter, one of our former members here managed to get a 24kWh LEAF from Fresno to Tuolumne Meadows and back, using inside the park L1 and L2 charging: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=9965&p=226781&hilit=yosemite#p226706 so BEVs with triple the range and reasonably close to the park QCs (Groveland to NW park entrance 23 miles, 54.5 miles and ~5k ft. more to east entrance) are relatively speaking a piece of cake.

Charging speeds beyond 70% or so are slower than in a Tesla, but then you're not starting from 10 or 15% SoC in this case, so a sit-down meal stop is adequate to get the needed charge.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

WetEV
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Tue Sep 25, 2018 7:38 pm

GRA wrote:I've not only looked at the map, I've run the trip numerous times on EVTriplanner with


Which isn't the same thing as actually driving the trip in a car.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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SageBrush
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:23 pm

GRA wrote:I've not only looked at the map, I've run the trip numerous times on EVTriplanner.

That's nice.

Tesla Model 3 LR: sure
Tesla Model 3 SR: I'm not sure
Feeble EV with 20 - 50 kW charging, under 150 mile range in temperate weather and a range buffer: only enthusiasts.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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paulgipe
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:12 am

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:A dispersion of L2 charging would be so much more enabling for the LEAF than one fancy DCFC location.


True for both LEAFs, Teslas and any other electrics. Especially if are higher Amp stations, 60 Amps or more, which today's LEAF can't take advantage of, but Tesla cars with dual chargers sure can.

Tesla owners do not care about L2 charging ... unless they are using it for inexpensive electricity or convenient parking. Such is the life of owning a 300 mile range EV supported by home charging and a 120 kW well developed, dispersed and maintained DC network.

The CHadeMo/CCS network and the cars that use it, such as it is, is a pale imitation of the Supercharger network and does not lead to the same owner behaviors.


That was my point--it is currently a feeble imitation. That's why we need to step our game especially for cars like the Bolt that we can use intercity. Or we can just buy Teslas. Not everyone can buy a Tesla. I don't consider a Bolt a feeble car. If we want more people to drive electric we need a robust non-Tesla network that enable 60 kWh cars. Tesla itself sold 60 kWh cars at one time. They built a network and it worked.

Paul
Bakersfield, California
2017 Bolt LT with DCFC, leased 11/09/17
2015 Nissan S with QC, leased, returned
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L2; ClipperCreek HCS-40; Jesla; JDapter Stub
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peter
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:42 am

I'm a 7 yr 2011 Leaf owner who recently bought a 2018 Bolt and returned the Prius. We are now 100% electric.

My wife and girl friends recently took our 1 mo old Bolt from the Bay Area to Tahoe, Northstar last weekend. This trip is ~220 mi each way with significant elevation change +7 kft in outgoing direction.

Our 8 (soon to be 7) bar 2011 Leaf is now good for only 40 mi with comfort. So I am used to OCD planning of any significant trips. We once took the Leaf to Grass Valley when a couple years old, but that took 4 QC stops each way and the Leaf's battery temp was smoking. Obviously Tahoe in a degraded Leaf is out of the question, but I was still a bit nervous with the Bolt as this was our first attempt at a long distance trip with it. In fact, the odometer was only about 200 mi total before this trip. Perhaps we had one the "under performing" Bolt batteries?

So I obsessively looked at several route planners, including A Better Route Planner & Chevy's App. All indicated a charging stop of > 1/2 hr on the way out (uphill), and no charging needed in the downhill direction. This particular route has EVgo chargers about every 15 mi thanks to "Drive the ARC," but most all these chargers are only 100A, and being in the boonies I was concerned about how well they are maintained. I wasn't sure the route planners were aware of the 100A limit, so I told my wife to do a 45 min "full" charge at Colfax for some safety.

Brief Summary:
- Left our mid peninsula house with full charge thanks to solar
- Unbeknownst to me, they took the longer route through Stockton which adds +20 mi because her girlfriends claimed this was "faster" (though Google disagrees)
- Air conditioning on the whole way.
- Couldn't figure out CC, but knew to try to keep it < 65 mph. However, she noticed several times creeping over 70 when not paying attention...
- Arrived at Colfax at ~20% (? from memory) and found charger - no issues. Live band was playing there! (talk about customer service)
- Added 26.2KW in 45 mins. Now up to ~60%. Only 60 mi uphill to destination.
- She started a second charge session. I texted "You're good to go - you don't need to charge anymore." I found out later that when I suggested she take the "full" 45 min charge she thought that I meant the car needed to be charged to 100% there. Ooof. She was used to always charging the Leaf up to 80% on fast charges.

- Second session added another 6.4KW in 15 min.
- Arrived at Northstar at about 30%. Total distance ~240 mi.
- Destination charged back up to 100% at free L2 at Timber Creek Lodge.
- Came back home, downhill, longer route, air blasting, no charging stops, and arrived at ~20%. Also 240 mi traveled.

So though this trip is not nearly as long, impressive, or adventurous as many here have done, it does point out that reasonable road trips can be done with little "sacrifice" or even excessive planning needed when there is decent charging infrastructure available. Of course the slow "fast" charging is somewhat disappointing (have all EVgo been downgraded to 100A now?), but still impressive that the trip was successful even though not every tenet in the EV range catechism was followed slavishly.

It also makes me wonder that it may be possible to do the uphill route with no stops with very careful driving. But certainly even a 15 min stop is all that should be necessary.

Also note: total cost of trip was $0 thanks to recent EVgo/Chevy promotion, solar, & free destination charging.

GRA
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:03 pm

WetEV wrote:
GRA wrote:I've not only looked at the map, I've run the trip numerous times on EVTriplanner with


Which isn't the same thing as actually driving the trip in a car.

Of course, but EVtriplanner has proven to be accurate to within +-5% by numerous users who've compared its results with their real-world ones, and that's well within the tolerance margin. A real-world test will confirm or deny, but I have no doubt that it could be done, slowing down as necessary if worried that you won't make it. I've also looked at it using EVTP's beta for the LEAF, which in the same full-load fall conditions needs 242 rated miles, which is probably pushing the Bolt too much at 1.0 speed factor. But most people visit during the summer, when the HVAC load's a lot less, and even if the round trip in a Bolt proves a step too far, the Kona and the Niro both have a shot. Of course, if we get destination or QC charging in Lee Vining as well as Groveland the issue's moot, as is the case when/if the QC at Rush Creek Lodge gets built, singleton though it will be, and thus inconvenient. From there, the round trip to Lee Vining in full load fall conditions uses 178 rated miles in a LEAF, which is doable with the Bolt or any of the other 200+ mile range cars.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:17 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:I've not only looked at the map, I've run the trip numerous times on EVTriplanner.

That's nice.

Tesla Model 3 LR: sure
Tesla Model 3 SR: I'm not sure
Feeble EV with 20 - 50 kW charging, under 150 mile range in temperate weather and a range buffer: only enthusiasts.

I've given the figures for the SR, and assuming it comes in with a pack about that size it should make it given EVTP's usual margin of error. Which EV are you calling feeble? The Bolt isn't feeble. Limited in this application sure, but then all BEVs are limited for this application compared to ICEs. The question is whether or not you can reasonably do it without imposing an inordinate delay. Short range BEVs do so. Single enroute stops to QC in 200+ mile BEVs don't IMO, unless you're doing it frequently - see Peter's post above, which involves less elevation gain but higher speeds. If Bjorn can drive the Niro 300+ miles @ 56 mph, then allowing for elevation gain and loss 182 miles with a reserve shouldn't be a problem at the same speed. Someone who's ponied up the cash for a longer-range BEV is more likely to want to use that range whenever possible, and will be willing to drive at the speed limit if needed. Inside the park that makes things safer for the animals, as well - I get tired of seeing these signs along the road: https://www.nps.gov/yose/blogs/roadside-naturalist-speeding-kills-bears-signs.htm or the dead deer.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Wed Sep 26, 2018 3:26 pm

paulgipe wrote:That was my point--it is currently a feeble imitation. That's why we need to step our game especially for cars like the Bolt that we can use intercity. Or we can just buy Teslas. Not everyone can buy a Tesla. I don't consider a Bolt a feeble car. If we want more people to drive electric we need a robust non-Tesla network that enable 60 kWh cars. Tesla itself sold 60 kWh cars at one time. They built a network and it worked.

60 kWh sounds like a minimum bar to me too, but keep in mind that at least in the Tesla case it implies 100 kW average charging and 220 mile range at traveling speed of ~ 65 mph. The current Bolt *might* get 190 miles range at that speed, and average 45 kW recharging en-route. The EV+network have to be considered as a package. I've read that a 150 kW CCS charger will up the Bolt charging rate to 60 kW --- although I am not sure what the average rate will be. That still amounts to a feeble long trip car. Thus my objection to expensive DCFC on routes poorly suited to the EVs being marketed that use that type of network.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GetOffYourGas
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:50 am

SageBrush wrote:...traveling speed of ~ 65 mph. The current Bolt *might* get 190 miles range at that speed


I'm not sure where you are getting this. I was getting over 200 miles range at 65MPH with a Thule box on the roof (extra drag) and moderate A/C usage (OAT = 90F / AC set to 75F). Without the box, I'd get more like 220. To get the rated 238, I'd have to go about 62MPH.

Here's my Thule box setup:
Image

Your charging rates are about right, though. You need a nominally 80kW (or higher) charger to get the max rate of 55kW into the Bolt. In my experience, most chargers in the wild are the 120A / 50kW variety, at least until EA fills in some more. These will give you 45kW. Still, that is plenty if you plan accordingly. It wasn't hard to plan stops so that the car was ready to go before I was. By charging at bathroom breaks for the kids, caffeine breaks for me and my wife , and longer meal breaks, I drove 580 miles each way to VA Beach.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

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