LADWP Pulls Plug on EV Charging Downtown

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timhebb

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
337
Location
Los Angeles, CA
DWP has about a dozen L2 charging stations in their downtown facility parking lot at First & Hope Street that are available to the public at no cost simply by driving up to Gate 6 on Hope St. and asking the security officer permission to enter and charge.

Until recently, the gatekeepers have granted admission from early morning until late at night seven days a week, with the caveat that EVs must exit the lot by midnight. But last week, security guards began to advise EV drivers that they must leave the property by 7pm, and will be allowed to enter no later than 5pm Monday through Friday - weekend entry no longer permitted. DWP's community relations line (213-367-1361) explains that this is not a new policy, but rather that existing policy is now being enforced, and that vehicles will be ticketed for violations starting April 1st.

Either way, this turn of events is not, in my view, consistent with DWP's otherwise commendable record of EV promotion and incentives. The policy also includes a four-hour maximum parking restriction, the one welcome and sensible change it brings (EV drivers did hog L2 parking spaces all day in many cases).

If these day and time policy restrictions impact you, please join me in contacting one or both of the LADWP personnel below, whose positions are relevant, and make your voice heard. You can call the number in bold above, but I believe you can get closer to the source by emailing DWP's Scott Briasco, Manager of Fleet Environmental Compliance and Electric Transportation at [email protected]. And/or the General Manager of LADWP, Ron Nichols, at [email protected].
 
we should hit them with a flood of complaints.

if you are calling the above number say you are with My Nissan Leaf Blog -- and ask for Joe Ramallo. He is the director of PR and such.
 
Here is my experience and the email I sent when I had an issue on Friday, March 1:

Hi Leonor,

I’m sorry for getting you stuck in the middle of the charging debacle today with our Nissan Leaf…

I’d like to give you a brief synopsis of what transpired and suggest a couple of possible future solutions for the problems we encountered.

We pulled in just after 10 this morning to charge since we were on the low side and it would be chancy getting back home without at least some charge. We were there to assist with the American Red Cross CPR and emergency training that was being done in Grand Park for the public. This is the first time we had used your lot charging facilities during a weekday as we always come either in the evening or on the weekend. We have never had an issue before today and have enjoyed and benefited from being allowed to charge at LADWP and stretching our range dozens of times. However, a friend of ours who also has a Leaf did tell us he came once during a weekday a couple of months ago and also found all the chargers full. He was told to just take whatever parking space was free and not reserved and see if some chargers freed up later. They did not and he left a few hours later without incident.

Nothing was said to me as we pulled in to the lot and were handed a ticket. Upon pulling up to the chargers, we noted that all of them were in use. Since I have a handicap placard because of a bad foot, I parked right next to the chargers in the handicap slot with the idea of running my 120 volt extension cord over and using my trickle charger from the 120 volt outlet that is located roughly between the second and third EVSE. Unfortunately, it turned out that this outlet is not operational for some reason. Because of my handicap placard, I could easily park at one of the street meters plus, the Red Cross was going to reimbursed us if we parked in the City lot near the Park. Thus, parking cost was not the issue, charging was. I planned to come back later and hopefully move the vehicle in to a charging spot that was then empty. I came back over at about 11am and no slots were available, likewise at about 12:30pm.

When we returned just before 2pm to leave we encountered the exit guard T. Tapp. She insisted that we would have to pay since we had not charged and I explained that I couldn’t since the chargers were full each of the three times I tried, and that your 120 volt L1 outlet was out of service so I could not use that either. She indicated that it made no difference and was quite rude and belligerent about it. After she got off the phone with you, I suggested that she open the gate and we would then pull on to Hope Street and wait for a supervisor as cars had backed up well behind us at that point and many were honking and angry. After some thought she concurred. We waited about 20 minutes but no one had showed up at that point so we left as our charge was getting critically low.

Now, a few possible solutions to this problem for the future…

1) When I arrived, all but one of the vehicles charging were Plug-in Hybrids (see attached photo). There was only one pure EV, a Honda Fit, eight Volt plug-in hybrids, and three Prius plug-in hybrids. As I am certain you know, plug-in hybrids have the option of running on gas and charging is not mission critical for them. However, not being able to charge for a pure battery EV such as the Nissan Leaf is mission critical and can strand the driver. Thus, perhaps two or three charging slots could be reserved for pure EVs only with signage such as “Reserved for battery Electric Vehicles only, no plug-in hybrids please.”

2) In keeping with the Assembly Bill AB475 that passed last year, signage might want to be considered that says something like “Parking only when actively charging. 4 hour time limit.” The last time I came back to check on charging spots, I discovered two Volts in charging spots that were not even plugged in to an EVSE but which were blocking the spots so that others could not use them…

3) To alleviate the charging dock shortage, perhaps some 120 volt outlets could be provided so that vehicles could trickle charge using the trickle charger that comes with every EV or Plugin Hybrid. This would increase vehicle capacity easily and cheaply.

I would be most happy to talk with you and discuss what occurred today and what might be done to alleviate the charging situation in the future. I am very active with the various EV groups, forums and discussion groups, and problems such as this are something that we actively discuss and feel very strongly about finding the best possible solutions to. LADWP has garnered substantial goodwill from the EV community and we would hate to see that tarnished by incidents such as this one. Please feel free to contact me at the numbers below.

Thanks again for your assistance and your interest in supporting Electric Vehicles.

-------------------

This is the response I received on March 18:

Good Morning,

First of all, I’d like to apologize for the delay in replying to your email. During this time I’ve been investigating the incident with the Security Office and also started
a new job in a different office that has kept me busy. However, it’s been in my mind to reply to your email once I had the correct information.

• I explained to your wife, over the phone, on that day (March 1st) that she was correct. The Security Guard was also correct because she was following instructions
recently given to her by her superiors. I also explained to your wife that with the high demand for EV parking spaces and more EVs on the road our Department’s EV parking policy is in the process of being revised. I apologized to her for LADWP not having a chance yet to notify the public or customers about it.

• Starting next month the Employee and Customer Parking Policy will include the new policy regarding EV charging stations. Specifically, EVs can park for free for four hours from the time stamped on the ticket, after which posted rates shall apply. Signage for this EV policy will be posted at the charging stations and possibly at the Gate 6 kiosk.


• The Parking Office will work closely with Security Services to implement controls to avoid similar situations in the future.

Please let me know if you have additional questions.

Have a great day!

Leonor V. Garcia
213 367-0795

---------------

I have just now followed up with emails to Briasco and Nichols.
 
Excellent and complete report, Tom.
And the answer from DWP is pretty complete on your circumstance and shows a real interest in good community relations.
However, it leaves out an answer to one of the issues at the heart of this: what does the new policy mean for nighttime and weekend parking? Is the lot being shutdown even when there isnt a plug-car crush?

I have heard that a major issue is, that with the proliferation of cars with J1772s, more and more people are parking all day at chargers, including visitors.
 
Yes, it is being shut down completely in the evenings and all day on weekends and no access will be allowed. A friend of mine had this comment from when he was there a few weeks ago: "I had a hunch that change was coming when the security guard told us recently that they're looking for ways to avoid local residents from abusing the privilege."

thankyouOB said:
However, it leaves out an answer to one of the issues at the heart of this: what does the new policy mean for nighttime and weekend parking? Is the lot being shutdown even when there isnt a plug-car crush? I have heard that a major issue is, that with the proliferation of cars with J1772s, more and more people are parking all day at chargers, including visitors.
 
thankyouOB said:
we should hit them with a flood of complaints.

if you are calling the above number say you are with My Nissan Leaf Blog -- and ask for Joe Ramallo. He is the director of PR and such.
Why "My Nissan Leaf Blog"? :?: I wouldn't consider this site to be a blog.

In the Andy Palmer Phoenix meeting, a woman (possibly someone I PMed to inform them of the meeting) referred to hearing of the meeting from "the blog" or someone from "the blog". I can only guess she meant MNL but this site is no more a blog to me than say priuschat.com, tivocommunity.com, my350z.com, etc. I wouldn't call any of them a blog.

I'd refer to this site as just mynissanleaf.com and possibly add on the words site or forum.
 
cwerdna said:
Why "My Nissan Leaf Blog"? :?: I wouldn't consider this site to be a blog.

I'd refer to this site as just mynissanleaf.com and possibly add on the words site or forum.
Many people not up to speed on proper internet lingo often refer to forums as blogs.

Anyway, this is just another situation where free charging has turned into a situation where it's privileges are abused by others. Just another reason why public charging should rarely be free (you always end up with greedy locals who abuse the privilege) and that time limits should be enforced (except perhaps for certain overnight parking, there are many cases where one might want to be able to park say from 9pm to 7am if they are staying overnight at a local hotel or something - as long as you are plugged in and charging at least for some portion of that time).

Situations like this almost make me fully support AB 475 - but that doesn't necessarily solve the issue (people will just plug in without charging) or creates new issues (if one's car gets unplugged by someone else). Sometimes I think just a good old fashioned parking meter would do the job! If only it could adjust the rate based on the rate of charge...
 
^^^
It's not pointless. It's so that everyone (in general) is on the same page, using the proper terminology and avoiding confusion.

In the case of the woman at the Phoenix meeting and how it related to how she found out about the meeting itself (she didn't see posts about it, she said dealers didn't know about it, etc.) when "the blog" was mentioned, how do you think others, esp. the Nissan folks took it to mean? What's "the blog"?
 
this is a great loss to the public. It should be EV limited. No hybrids, and pseudo EVs.
DWP is making a mistake, as did the LAX WorldAirport, when it dropped free EV parking without keeping it at the remote lots.
Does LA want more EVs, and less auto pollution or NOT?
 
You have to enter their lot to access the chargers. This is a lot that is normally used by LADWP employees though the public can use it during business hours as well. It is very expensive though and a four hour stay will cost you $21. EVs used to be allowed to enter the lot and use the chargers for free any day from 6am until midnight... We found it very convenient to charge when we attend events at the Music Center in the evening, for example, and that would allow us to do other things during the day and then recharge enough for the trip back home after the event. That is no longer an option under their new policy.


garygid said:
The email answer seems to indicate that they are providing
and regulating EV parking, not EV charging.
Or, did I read it incorrectly?
 
drees said:
Anyway, this is just another situation where free charging has turned into a situation where it's privileges are abused by others. Just another reason why public charging should rarely be free (you always end up with greedy locals who abuse the privilege) and that time limits should be enforced (except perhaps for certain overnight parking, there are many cases where one might want to be able to park say from 9pm to 7am if they are staying overnight at a local hotel or something - as long as you are plugged in and charging at least for some portion of that time).
Just to clarify the DWP situation a bit, there was a glut of EV's occupying their parking/charging spaces for several months beginning after the Volt and Leaf were marketed with blow-out financing options, the great lease deals we all recall in mid-to-late 2012. DWP employees responded enthusiastically (particularly to the Volt deals) and began to park & charge in those spaces, often all day until their shifts ended. This effectively shut out EV visitors during business hours.

But DWP management noticed and developed plans to install employee-only charging spaces, so that both employees and visitors could be accommodated. This project is underway now, AFAIK. So far, so good. But then the other shoe dropped, restricting days and hours for EV visitors (not, apparently, for employees). At the same time, a four-hour parking/charging limit was imposed, which applies to employees as well as visitors.

Though I oppose the new limits on days and times, I fully support the four-hour charging limit. Suddenly, there are charging spots open in the middle of the day, Monday through Friday. Just a month ago it was virtually impossible to find an available spot to charge at DWP on a weekday. Now, in the last week or so, every time I've gone there during peak hours (I live eight mins. away), I've found a space.

So, there are good restrictions and there are bad - or at least pointless - restrictions. We need to encourage the former and protest the latter, and point out what the difference is and why. It is difficult to think of a rational reason for DWP to restrict usage of their charging facilities to business hours, particularly after they had been permitting more open access for so long.

A charging station is a terrible thing to waste; it's sad to see a dozen of them in a row, inaccessible to the public on weekends and after dark, watching over vacant parking spaces, for no comprehensible reason.

If you ever drive downtown after dark or on the weekend, to see a play or musical, say, at the Ahmanson or Mark Taper, or hear a concert at Disney Hall (all across the street from DWP), you have a reason to let DWP officials know what you think. See the first post for phone numbers/email addresses.
 
timhebb said:
If you ever drive downtown after dark or on the weekend, to see a play or musical, say, at the Ahmanson or Mark Taper, or hear a concert at Disney Hall (all across the street from DWP), you have a reason to let DWP officials know what you think. See the first post for phone numbers/email addresses.

couldnt agree with you more if i had said it myself.
why shutdown a charging station on nights and weekends that can bring EVs to DT instead of ICEs?
and ban the faux plug-ins.
 
drees said:
... this is just another situation where free charging has turned into a situation where it's privileges are abused by others. Just another reason why public charging should rarely be free... I think just a good old fashioned parking meter would do the job! If only it could adjust the rate based on the rate of charge...

This sums up my thoughts perfectly.
 
Let's not confuse the issues here: this thread is primarily about access, but it's not entirely irrelevant to introduce the issue of free vs. paid charging. Fair enough, so long as some relationship between these two things can be demonstrated or inferred. I'm not sure there is any in this case. We don't really know, because DWP hasn't been transparent about their policies or their purpose.

For the record, I have no problem with paying for charging, so long as the rate doesn't invert the inherent cost advantage driving electric has over burning fossil fuel. (For me, that's probably not more than a dollar an hour.)

I also see no reason why both free and paid charging can't co-exist comfortably in this world, the same way free and paid parking do. Demand, supply and market forces should set the rules and the price.

I live in a rented duplex with a private garage and 120-volt trickle charging near downtown. I've asked the owner to let me install an L2 station at my expense - no go, so far. Therefore, I often used to visit the DWP facility downtown (about two miles away from my home) on weekends to add charge more quickly if needed. Of the dozen or so parking/charging spaces, usually only one or two others were occupied on weekends, as opposed to all being used on weekdays (mostly, as I've pointed out before, by employees of DWP). So who, if anyone, is "abusing" the free charging privilege?
 
We were downtown this evening for a show at the Music Center and walked across the street to talk to the security guard. He was exceptionally nice and confirmed that there is no more charging on the weekends or in the evenings, and a 4 hour limit during weekdays. He also confirmed that it was due to a few who had been abusing the privileged, as we suspected...

He did have an excellent suggestion: The LADWP commissioners have a meeting every month that is open to the public and at which the public can speak (you fill out a speakers card in advance on what you wish to discuss with them). Perhaps a group of us can go to the next meeting and appoint one member to act as a spokesperson and discuss the charging issue with them. It might have more affect than sending email or letters...

On a separate note, we observed that they are installing 120 volt charging boxes for EVs. This should lighten the load on the 240V EVSEs and provide additional options, particularly if the Volts and PiPs, which require less capacity, can be persuaded to charge there instead...

34pifc7.jpg
 
TomT said:
We were downtown this evening for a show at the Music Center and walked across the street to talk to the security guard. He was exceptionally nice and confirmed that there is no more charging on the weekends or in the evenings, and a 4 hour limit during weekdays

I can confirm it was being abused, very similar to the Mitsubishi Headquarters where a few people would drive there to charge for free and leave the car there all day/night sometimes.

-Matt
 
Per the DWP web site at: http://www.ladwp.com/board" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Board of Water and Power Commissioners meets regularly on the first and third Tuesdays of each month at 1:30 p.m.

The meeting location is:

Los Angeles Department of Water and Power
Room 1555-H, 15th Floor
111 North Hope Street
Los Angeles, CA 90012

The meeting agendas are also posted on the page along with other relevant details.

I have already been planning to attend a meeting as soon as practical, and the schedule indicates the next one is just two days off, Tuesday, April 2nd. I'm not sure yet if I will be free to attend, but would be interested to know if any others are able to and interested. There is power in numbers, especially coordinated numbers.

As far as the charge that abusers of the privilege are responsible for the recent access restrictions, I'm dubious. What abuse exactly would not have been adequately addressed simply by imposing the four-hour parking/charging limit, rather than also decreeing evenings and weekends off limits? I fully support the four-hour limit; it should have been in place from the beginning. How does denying access on weekends and evenings improve on preventing that abuse? Other than parking for hours longer than needed for charging, what exactly constitutes abuse anyway? If the DWP wants to float the charge that abuse is the reason for these access restrictions, shouldn't they at least define the term for the public?
 
Me too! If they have or had a problem, simply ticket and/or tow them. It seems silly to ruin it for everyone because of a couple of supposed bad apples...
(I did meet one individual there some time ago who told me that he lived nearby and did not have an EVSE where he lives so he simply plugged in his Leaf at the DWP and left it there over night...)

I would love to orchestrate this so that we could get the maximum number of Leaf owners to show up at a Commission meeting.

timhebb said:
As far as the charge that abusers of the privilege are responsible for the recent access restrictions, I'm dubious.
 
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