Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

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Cor

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2013
Messages
162
I see a lot of 2011 and 2012 with much reduced range to the point that owners gt rid of the car because it no longer satisfies their needs for daily travel. I expect that it is rather straightforward to drop the battery and bolt a new (2013 or even 2015) pack under a 2011/2012 to regain
the full original range of the vehicle.
I am wondering how many early Leaf owners would pay for example $3000 to get an almost new pack installed (swapped out).
 
Where would someone get an "almost new pack" for $3,000 when a new pack costs $5500 plus a bracket for backward compatibility plus tax. This would be close to $7,000 in California.
 
A new battery is $5,800-$6,000 installed, with surrendering the old one to Nissan. I don't think you can even get one without an old battery you "trade in". And you get all applicable warranties with it. I doubt $3k is a realistic number for a battery from junk yard installed, not to mention that you can't simply swap the batteries, it requires dealer reprogramming the VCM. I see $4-5k is a more realistic number, and you end up with a battery with no warranty, I doubt there will be many takers.
 
Hi Valdemar,
$3000 is a made-up number from seeing prices for Salvage 2013-2015 Leafs, taking into account that the remains of the vehicle has some residual value for parting out as well as the old pack still having some value.
Indeed this is without dealer involvement, I was not aware that the VCM needs re-programming, I was hoping for a plug-and-play swap
but apparently that is too optimistic.
There is always the option of opening the 2011/2012 pack shell and swapping the actual cells, but that may again be more effort required than a clean swap. Hmm, I may just gather a Leaf pack for my truck and leave this issue alone, unless someone would like to pursue this together.
 
Based on what we know module by module swapping is the only DIY route possible, which is obviously more labor intensive. New modules are different than those in 2011/12 cars, so they don't just bolt on, some additional effort will be required to install them. It can be easier to move the battery controller instead.

Finding a complete battery by itself for 2-3k may turn out to be problematic, as if someone take it off they are likely to sell it as individuals modules, currently they go for $100 each give or take, 48 of them in the pack, you do the math.

Sure, if someone buys a wrecked Leaf for a DIY battery swap the numbers should work out well considering they can sell other take off parts, but this is too much of a project for most Leaf owners out there.
 
I'm not sure I'd want to go through the trouble and expense of replacing the battery in my 2011 unless the new battery has more capacity than the original. So, if Nissan ends up selling 30 kWh batteries as replacements for older cars, I'm more likely to be interested. Even then, with 200 mile "affordable" EVs coming, I'd think twice before spending thousands on a pack with only 30 kWh.
 
Given my recent accident and insurance experience I know I will not buy a new battery unless insurance companies develop a special program ensuring fair compensation for recently installed batteries in EVs in a total loss scenario. I was able to negotiate only about $2k more based on a month old battery in my car on top of their initial offer after my car was declared "total loss". My luck I didn't pay for the battery, it would hurt a lot if I did.
 
Valdemar said:
Given my recent accident and insurance experience I know I will not buy a new battery unless insurance companies develop a special program ensuring fair compensation for recently installed batteries in EVs in a total loss scenario. I was able to negotiate only about $2k more based on a month old battery in my car on top of their initial offer after my car was declared "total loss". My luck I didn't pay for the battery, it would hurt a lot if I did.
Did you explore the option of keeping the vehicle and selling it privately?
That could have added quite a bit to the return on the new battery value.
If you know what happened to your vehicle (or even if you don't then I would be interested to know the VIN
to see if it shows up on the auction site!
 
Cor said:
Valdemar said:
Given my recent accident and insurance experience I know I will not buy a new battery unless insurance companies develop a special program ensuring fair compensation for recently installed batteries in EVs in a total loss scenario. I was able to negotiate only about $2k more based on a month old battery in my car on top of their initial offer after my car was declared "total loss". My luck I didn't pay for the battery, it would hurt a lot if I did.
Did you explore the option of keeping the vehicle and selling it privately?
That could have added quite a bit to the return on the new battery value.
If you know what happened to your vehicle (or even if you don't then I would be interested to know the VIN
to see if it shows up on the auction site!

I kept it as the damage wasn't too bad, and ignoring the looks the car is driveable, I have no intention to sell, will fix it up sooner or later if at all. I was lucky I suppose, but considering a hypothetical worst case scenario when the car is trashed most of your battery investment money would go to waste.
 
Valdemar said:
I kept it as the damage wasn't too bad, and ignoring the looks the car is driveable, I have no intention to sell, will fix it up sooner or later if at all. I was lucky I suppose, but considering a hypothetical worst case scenario when the car is trashed most of your battery investment money would go to waste.
Good for you! It is always possible to fix up the car if you don't like how it looks,
while still enjoying it, especially with a new battery!
I'll probably focus on getting a battery for my S10 truck instead of upgrading other's 2011/2012 Leaf's then, with the feedback
I have gotten so far. Thanks for the guidance!
 
I have the same experience with my recently "totaled" (front body damage) 2011 SL. Insurance offered me very little for my loss. However, I have the salvage 2011 Leaf with a relatively new battery (installed oct 2015 with about 8k miles). I would be willing to sell it to someone for less than the cost of a new battery. It's currently located in a salvage yard in San Diego.
 
DMHLeafer said:
I have the same experience with my recently "totaled" (front body damage) 2011 SL. Insurance offered me very little for my loss. However, I have the salvage 2011 Leaf with a relatively new battery (installed oct 2015 with about 8k miles). I would be willing to sell it to someone for less than the cost of a new battery. It's currently located in a salvage yard in San Diego.

I have an interest... What is the price?
 
I want to repeat my offer of $3000 for install of a Lizard battery in someone's 2011 (battery swap, I like to take the old battery)
and I have been in contact with DMHLeafer about his totaled 2011 with Lizard battery - that is the battery I offer to install in your 2011
after removing it from his totaled 2011.
I want to make this risk free for you: if you are not satisfied or I can't get the 2015 battery to work on your car somehow
then I will put your own battery back and all I have lost is my time.
When I install the 2015 Lizard battery on your vehicle and it shows full capacity (12 bars) and it works to your satisfaction
then you give me $3000 for the battery while I get to keep your old battery.
If you are concerned about warranty or other Nissan policies for your vehicle then you will need to contact Nissan to ask,
I can't do that for you.
Please don't let me install the battery and after it works, you change your mind and say you are concerned about warranty,
please do your homework in advance.
I prefer to find someone near Silicon Valley to make this swap and I have this offer outstanding with a neighbor that has a
2011 with marginal battery, so he might decide to jump on it, otherwise I am open to hear who would like to do this swap
(removing the new Lizard battery from the salvage 2011 and bringing it to you, removing your 2011 battery, putting the
Lizard battery it in your car and taking your old battery)
I believe a new battery from Nissan costs $5900 and $1200 install, so you are getting over $7k worth for $3k by accepting
a Lizard battery with a few thousand miles on it and letting me do the install.

Full disclosure: I am not a mechanic, although I love working on cars, I have rebuilt several vehicles, but I am an EE (Electrical Engineer) by trade, so I have dome thing like a full pack design and install on a US Electricar S10 truck (I am about to repeat that with a double Leaf pack on a second US Electricar) I have rebuilt 2 Priuses,
one was bought with front end damage and restored to full operation, the second I swapped a new engine and transaxle (with the electric motors) into and installed a new battery pack. Then I installed two replacement motors (MG2) into two failing Priuses.
Next big thing is to repair a friend's 2005 Hybrid pack and to recharge a completely dead Hybrid battery in another Prius so that
it can at least be started after making repairs. There are many smaller/non-electric repairs I have made but this gives you an idea
about my ability to work with a Leaf pack. Last thing was 3 weeks ago when I picked up a 2011 Leaf pack from SacAuto and since it
was too big to fit in my Prius to take back to the Bay Area, I took it apart on the spot (documented it here on this site as well) so even
the process of opening the pack and safely working on the cells inside is something I am familiar with.
 
Hi Stoaty,
Actually my neighbor seems interested in the pack swap so I might do this in my own garage.
If that somehow does not work out then I will contact you to see if we can find a way to do it at your site,
though that will be a lot more challenging, unless you have plenty tools and level working space in the garage...
Cor.
 
OK, neighbor has agreed and tomorrow I will attempt to put the 2015 pack in his car.
Today I borrowed an Android phone, downloaded Leaf Spy and paired it with the Bluetooth ELM327 that I already had
so I was able to see the status of the pack. Wow! 66.14 Ahr SOH 100% (obviously) 394.11V (SoC 89.8%) Hx 100.20%
Almost all cells are within 4.10-4.11V
The Leaf estimated 106 mi range (don't think so)
and tomorrow I will see if there is any issue plopping the pack into another 2011, or that it will be required to "pair" the BMS to the car
as I saw on the work order for the 2015 pack swap - though I suspect that had to do with the 2015 pack to 2011 vehicle compatibility.
We will find out tomorrow, I guess.
 
(NOTE: post edited to reflect the "battery pairing" issue I ran into) OK, it appears that the car *does* care which battery it is connected to - not only the control connector must fit (the 2011 and 2012 have 4 rows of pins) and the battery must speak the "language" that the car expects, so the car may care less whether it is an original 2011 battery or an upgrade 2015 battery (with 2011 connector and BMS programming), but the battery also must be "paired" with the car, as I found out. The car accepted my pack swap seemingly without issues, but does not want to drive faster than 25-30MPH. Note that I was going from a "warranty replacement" 2015 pack in a salvage 2011 to an original 2011 pack, so the 2015 is now out of the (salvage) car and ready to go into my neighbor's 2011.
The main differences that I noticed are:
1. The 2011 pack has round pin disconnect with a green handle, the 2015 has "blade" style and smaller physical size disconnect with a white handle. It is also offset on the white plastic rectangle on the pack, while the round pin disconnect plug is centered. This makes no difference for the swap as the disconnect stays with the pack.
2. There is a black bracket attached to the back side of a 2015 pack with two 16mm bolts and a 17mm bolt to connect it to the car above the rear axle. Not sure why it is there as the pack is already bolted to the car with 8 17mm bolts that you can only loosen with a 3 ft breaker bar (I use a 3 ft steel pipe on my 12" ratchet with 1/2" drive)
3. The plastic underbody panels under the battery are different shape for the 2011 and the 2015 battery so make sure that these panels fit the battery (stay with the battery when you swap) as otherwise the panels may no longer fit.

Unrelated but relevant is that Nissan has apparently tried to hide pack capacity loss when they reprogrammed the Leaf,
because the 2011 pack has only 52.68 Ah capacity (was originally 64 Ah) so the SoH is 80% and Hx is only 63%
yet the Leaf displays 11 bars which seems wildly optimistic for a loss of 11.32 / 64 = 17.7% capacity. NOTE that this is more than 1/6 of total battery capacity that is lost, so one would reasonably expect that of 12 bars, at least 2 would have disappeared after more than 1/6th loss as that is more than 2/12th: at least 2 bars out of 12. Hmmmm...
Anyway, this pack is still doing OK for a 2011 pack, apparently not suffered much from heat.
 
Interesting, I thoughts there were reports stating the car is put into restricted power output mode after a "bootleg" battery is installed, it can be driven but it won't go faster than 30mph or so.
 
Cor said:
OK, it appears that the car does not care which battery it is connected to ...
Thanks for posting this very good news.

="Cor"
...Unrelated but relevant is that Nissan has apparently tried to hide pack capacity loss when they reprogrammed the Leaf,
because the 2011 pack has only 52.68 Ah capacity (was originally 64 Ah) so the SoH is 80% and Hx is only 63%
yet the Leaf displays 11 bars which seems wildly optimistic for a loss of 11.32 / 64 = 17.7% capacity. NOTE that this is more than 1/6 of total battery capacity that is lost, so one would reasonably expect that of 12 bars, at least 2 would have disappeared after more than 1/6th loss as that is more than 2/12th: at least 2 bars out of 12. Hmmmm...
Anyway, this pack is still doing OK for a 2011 pack, apparently not suffered much from heat
Do I understand you correctly, that the 2015 replacement pack displayed 66.14 Ah when in the totaled LEAF, and displayed only 52.58 Ah and 11 capacity bars on the dash, after you installed it in your neighbor's 2011?

It requires much more than 17.7 % LBC-reported capacity loss to lose the 11th capacity bar, ~21.5% (~15% for the 12th bar, and ~6.5% for each subsequent bar) IIRC.
 
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