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Nubo
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:21 am

paulgipe wrote:...unlike Oregon, California didn't even try to connect major cities along the north-south corridor until very late in their program--and only after a lot of advocacy....


This was my main gripe about CA's ineptitude. If there's no functional network, the charger-to-population ratio is moot because it's difficult to get out of one's local zone regardless of how dense the chargers might be in your home area.

Also, thanks to SAE's insistence on a new standard that added nothing of import compared to the already-established standard, development of the charging infrastructure will be unduly burdened for years to come.

Tesla also went their own way but in this case entirely justified because it took an end-run past years of standards-body dithering and obstructionism and instituted a much more fully-realized solution right away. They're willing to partner with other makers. Please, PLEASE Nissan!
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

SageBrush
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:21 am

paulgipe wrote:I think you would be surprised by the volume of traffic on US 395. Why do you think Tesla installed four superchargers on the route?
I was referring to feeble EV traffic on the 395. EVs like your Bolt (and in fact every CHadeMo/CCS sold to date in the USA is not a long trip car to anybody but a handful of enthusiasts like yourself. The remainder treat them as local/wide-local cars and that is where an infrastructure that extends their range in a way that people will use is reasonable.

Tesla are not feeble EVs due to their range AND charge rate.
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
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SageBrush
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:42 am

Nubo wrote:
paulgipe wrote:...unlike Oregon, California didn't even try to connect major cities along the north-south corridor until very late in their program--and only after a lot of advocacy....

This was my main gripe about CA's ineptitude. If there's no functional network, the charger-to-population ratio is moot because it's difficult to get out of one's local zone regardless of how dense the chargers might be in your home area.

I presume the thinking was to first enable local EV use, then wide-local. The reasoning makes sense to me, particularly given the limitations of non Tesla EVs sold during those years. Connecting cities in CA was a PR exercise since very few 75 mile range EVs would ever care to drive between San Diego and LA, let alone LA to SF. Heck, even today driving a CCS/CHadeMO EV between LA and SF is a chore best left to the retired.

I live in a rural area and work is 45 miles away. A dispersion of L2 charging would be so much more enabling for the LEAF than one fancy DCFC location.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
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WetEV
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:29 am

SageBrush wrote:A dispersion of L2 charging would be so much more enabling for the LEAF than one fancy DCFC location.


True for both LEAFs, Teslas and any other electrics. Especially if are higher Amp stations, 60 Amps or more, which today's LEAF can't take advantage of, but Tesla cars with dual chargers sure can.
WetEV
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SageBrush
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:21 am

WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:A dispersion of L2 charging would be so much more enabling for the LEAF than one fancy DCFC location.


True for both LEAFs, Teslas and any other electrics. Especially if are higher Amp stations, 60 Amps or more, which today's LEAF can't take advantage of, but Tesla cars with dual chargers sure can.

Tesla owners do not care about L2 charging ... unless they are using it for inexpensive electricity or convenient parking. Such is the life of owning a 300 mile range EV supported by home charging and a 120 kW well developed, dispersed and maintained DC network.

The CHadeMo/CCS network and the cars that use it, such as it is, is a pale imitation of the Supercharger network and does not lead to the same owner behaviors.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:19 pm

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:
SageBrush wrote:A dispersion of L2 charging would be so much more enabling for the LEAF than one fancy DCFC location.


True for both LEAFs, Teslas and any other electrics. Especially if are higher Amp stations, 60 Amps or more, which today's LEAF can't take advantage of, but Tesla cars with dual chargers sure can.

Tesla owners do not care about L2 charging ... unless they are using it for inexpensive electricity or convenient parking.

Or they are beyond the convenient reach of supercharge stations, which isn't 300 miles, or even half of that. Such places do still exist. And are likely to continue to exist for a long time.

Need an example? Neah Bay, WA

99 miles on 101 from the Superchargers at Sequim. Need to have enough to get back. Need to have some for local trips around Neah Bay, and for reserve for unknowns, and for vampire losses. Can't charge to 100 %, unless you spend a lot of time in Sequim. Hmm. And if rather than going back, continue on to Aberdeen. 255 miles between Superchargers, and you want some side trips? Maybe an L2 in Neah Bay (or at some other stop on the trip) is a good idea.
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GRA
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:55 pm

SageBrush wrote:
paulgipe wrote:I think you would be surprised by the volume of traffic on US 395. Why do you think Tesla installed four superchargers on the route?
I was referring to feeble EV traffic on the 395. EVs like your Bolt (and in fact every CHadeMo/CCS sold to date in the USA is not a long trip car to anybody but a handful of enthusiasts like yourself. The remainder treat them as local/wide-local cars and that is where an infrastructure that extends their range in a way that people will use is reasonable.

Tesla are not feeble EVs due to their range AND charge rate.

I'm in partial agreement, but I think the Bolt and the other soon to arrive 200+ mile BEVs with CCS/CHAdeMO work okay as one QC each way trip i.e. weekend getaway cars. So, for Bay Area residents, putting a QC in Groveland or some point east of it makes it possible to visit Yosemite and return with just one QC stop along the way (each way), and even over to 395 and maybe as far south as Mammoth and return. Putting a QC in Inyokern, Olancha or Lone Pine allows Greater L.A. residents to reach Mammoth and return, although you'd also want/need destination charging there. Naturally, the closer spacing the better, which is why Tesla has SCs in Mojave, Inyokern, Lone Pine and Mammoth, is adding one in Bishop at some point, and still needs one in Lee Vining. Lee Vining, Bishop and Lone Pine are all about 1 hour apart, which allows un-recharged round trips to any point between them (plus some local driving), while only needing to charge to 80% or so ( I assume minimum of 15% reserve). Adding QCs in Inyokern and/or Mojave (plus Kramer Junction) allows for no worries in worst case conditions.

As the 150kW and then 350 kW CCS BEVs (and maybe 400kW CHAdeMO) vehicles begin to arrive, Tesla's QC speed advantage will no longer exist (they seem to be talking about going to 250kW or so), leaving them with their range advantage (and a more extensive network) as advantages for now.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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SageBrush
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:36 pm

GRA wrote:So, for Bay Area residents, putting a QC in Groveland or some point east of it makes it possible to visit Yosemite and return with just one QC stop along the way (each way)

Take a closer look at a map, and remember that charging past 70% SoC or so is *really* slow, and Yosemite has poor or non-existent charging facilities. Starting at the midway point and ending there is ~ 200 miles not counting any driving around in the park.

Not. Going. To. Happen
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User avatar
Nubo
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:19 am

SageBrush wrote:
Nubo wrote:This was my main gripe about CA's ineptitude. If there's no functional network, the charger-to-population ratio is moot because it's difficult to get out of one's local zone regardless of how dense the chargers might be in your home area.

I presume the thinking was to first enable local EV use, then wide-local. The reasoning makes sense to me, particularly given the limitations of non Tesla EVs sold during those years. Connecting cities in CA was a PR exercise since very few 75 mile range EVs would ever care to drive between San Diego and LA, let alone LA to SF. Heck, even today driving a CCS/CHadeMO EV between LA and SF is a chore best left to the retired. ...


Yes, the bar was set too low from the start. A demonstrable "electric highway" is important psychologically long before it's widely used.

While local L2 surely meets some needs, the idea of scurrying from one "opportunity charge" to the next is simply not appealing to any but the most dedicated. Most charging takes place at home. The exception that needs filling is long-distance travel, and apartment dwellers/renters. As the capacity of packs increases, public L2 will become increasingly marginalized and fade away in favor of fast-charging for distance trips and for EV owners who don't have access to home charging. 10 years from now many of today's L2 stations will have either disappeared or will be in disrepair; sort of like phone booths. The exception could be workplace charging with V2G opportunities.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

SageBrush
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Re: California Lags in DC Fast-Charging Station Density for Electric Vehicles

Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:56 am

Nubo wrote:Yes, the bar was set too low from the start. A demonstrable "electric highway" is important psychologically long before it's widely used.

Seems like a fair argument if funds are unlimited.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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