webb14leafs
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Just FYI. Nissan is the third most reliable car maker on the planet. Behind Toyota and Honda. It and Mazda usually duke it out for 3rd and 4th.
Of course, GM sets the bar pretty low.
Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?
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Just FYI. Nissan is the third most reliable car maker on the planet. Behind Toyota and Honda. It and Mazda usually duke it out for 3rd and 4th.
Of course, GM sets the bar pretty low.
internalaudit
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webb14leafs said:
Oh, my apologies then. I just went with the assumption that it wasn't close to Honda or Toyota because I checked some reviews on True Delta on the 2013-15 Leaf and noticed issues were all over the place.
Good to know Nissan is also quite dependable.
webb14leafs
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internalaudit said:
Actually, You're correct. They are not close to Honda or Toyota, but they're still 3rd.
I'd say the number of issues are typical of a first generation car. Even first-model year cars can be really bad. The 2001-2002 Honda Accords were horrible because they were a redesign, but by 2004 they had the transmission issues worked out and they were great cars again.
evnow
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webb14leafs said:
Here is the list from CR for 2016.
http://clark.com/cars/most-least-reliable-cars-consumer-reports/
jlv
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I've driven an AP1 car (Model X, but only about 40 miles total) and an AP2 car. AP1 is superior (still), but AP2 keeps having features added to it to make up the difference. AP1 identified the truck in the next lane as a truck, whereas AP2 only shows it as another car. When I got the S, my AP2 was limited to 60MPH on the highway; now it has no limit. I'm feel pretty confident that AP2 will surpass AP1 by the end of the year.Joe6pack said:
Meanwhile, I've driven several thousand miles with AP2 engaged. My wife and I are both software engineers, so we were likely far more skeptical about relying on the underlying AP software than most people. But we've found that it just works. On the highway, it is exceptionally reliable. It does poorer on side roads (especially ones with curves). It's a driver assistance system; it does not take over driving(*). You've got to hold onto the steering wheel and be prepared to take over at any instance - with nearly no advance notice.
My first everyday use of AP was when commuting home directly west into the glare of sunset. I couldn't always tell if the car in front of me was suddenly braking, but AP could and did. (FWIW, this was when AP2 was limited to 35MPH on non-highways and before auto-emergency-braking was enabled).
I wasn't sure I would like AP, but having it now (and having used it), I find it a good tool for driving.
(*) that all said, I can not fathom how AP will turn into FSD. It just doesn't seem capable enough -- yet.
EatsShootsandLeafs
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It is in fact literally true, assuming they stay with their production schedule. There will be a $35k option AND some will buy in the next few months. Not sure where you're getting the $36k unless you include destination charge which AFAIK has nothing to do with tesla (legally mandated?).edatoakrun said:
Profitability on the car is changing the goalposts. No argument they aren't making much (any right now?) on $35k, but $35k it will be.
EatsShootsandLeafs
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What can Nisasn ProPILOT even do right now?edatoakrun said:
As for your argument about cost of ownership it is of course lower with the leaf, just as it is lower with a camry vs a rolls royce phantom. They are different classes of cars. The tesla is a more expensive car because it's a better car. Surely even you could admit that.
I don't want to rag on the leaf too much. If Nissan comes out many thousands cheaper than the model 3 and propilot is really nice, I'd certainly consider another one, and I actually do think the leaf will offer better reliability than the tesla. But, it's still not as nice a car and there is a reason it is cheaper.
edatoakrun
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~Six months ago it could do this:EatsShootsandLeafs said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfRqNAhAe6c
But that level of autonomy in a production car is acknowledged to still be several years off.
I doubt The LEAF's ProPilot Assist (note the Americanized name) will be much different from that rudimentary driver assist system Nissan introduced last year in Japan.
Here is a recent review, as previewed on an ICEV:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2017/07/21/nissan-propilot-assist-preview-its-automated-but-not-self-driving/#97748dc568b6
I expect ProPilot Assist will probably be more reliable than autopilot, due to Nissan's greater liability concerns.
The only additional feature autopilot has today, that I am aware of, is its ability to change lanes using the turn signal, rather than the wheel.
But I haven't followed autopilot very closely, which is why I'm asking.
dgpcolorado
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If New Mexico ever shakes off the influence of the auto dealer lobby and lets Tesla into the state, the proposed Service Center in Albuquerque figures to be a lot closer for you. Hard to see a service center getting closer than Denver or ABQ for me (very unlikely for Grand Junction, the only significant city in western Colorado, for example). It is a disadvantage of the Tesla 3 versus a LEAF 2; although a LEAF is strictly a local car around here given the dearth of DCFC infrastructure, as you know.SageBrush said:
NM strikes me as a long shot for the near term, so I am hoping for a modified Ranger setup whereby a nearby town gets service perhaps a week every quarter and a radius of say 50-100 miles of owners drive there for service.dgpcolorado said:
GRA
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It's that qualification in bold that makes those of us who have knowledge of human factors research in this area unwilling to trust our lives to Level 2 or 3 semi-autonomy, and we'll wait for Level 4 with seven or more nines of reliability. Every bit of research I've ever read on the effects of automation on pilot ability to respond properly in short-notice situations confirms that human beings are extremely poor at maintaining the attention level needed to instantly resume control, while bored and along for the ride. They can do it for a bit given considerable effort, but inevitably their attention strays.jlv said:
The basic limitation on response time is determined by how fast someone can cycle through what was coined in the 1970s for fighter pilots as the OODA loop (Observe - Orient - Decide - Act), and the ability to do that as rapidly as possible requires constant engagement with what's happening to shorten the first two periods, as well as eliminating as much extraneous mental tasking as possible (what an ex-Navy and subsequently Northwest Airlines pilot/ANG fighter jock acquaintance of mine called "load shitting"). The human brain does this automatically to some extent, the question is whether or not it's choosing to ignore the trivia or the important stuff. The increasing number of distracted driving accidents involving cell phones and infotainment systems answers that question. Here's a classic example of an entire flight crew allowing themselves to be distracted and focusing on the wrong thing with no one concentrating on monitoring the plane as it flew on A/P, an FAA re-creation of the Eastern Airlines Flight 401 crash in Florida in the '70s, which IIRR I first saw on an episode of Nova:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICqPGkto3Yo
alozzy
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Excellent way to sum up the problem with AP. It's either a gimmicky, yet cool, tech demonstration, or it has to be 100% reliable. Anything in between breeds either mistrust (in which case, long-term enjoyment of the tech is drastically reduced) or fatal accidents for those who get bored and stop paying attention.
Maybe it's just me, but even with cruise control I find it's rare that I can "set and forget" it. I like to keep a safe distance to the car in front, so when traffic gets even momentarily congested, I often tap the brake to disable cruise and then shortly thereafter resume CC. Doing that half a dozen times and I start feeling like CC is a waste of my time. Knowing myself, I would very likely do the same sort of thing with AP...
evnow
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jlv said:
For me this makes it more or less useless. In act it may be easier for me to just drive than have the stress of AP malfunctioning or suddenly asking me to take over. I find it easier to drive than sit next to a teenager just learning to drive, for eg.
EAP becomes useful when it can reliably (97%+ of the time) do the commute for me. This should come before full self-driving - since the road is well known and I can train the EAP for the route.
edatoakrun
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The objective is to have a driver-assistance system (unlike autopilot) that does NOT malfunction or suddenly ask you to take over, while insuring the driver remains at at the necessary attention level to take over, if that ever becomes required.evnow said:
According to several reviews, such as the one below (with a video demonstration) Nissan may be the first manufacturer to have accomplished this:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/hands-on-with-nissans-propilot-assist/
IssacZachary
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Some Nissan Vehicles should be avoided. My brother bought a Nissan Pathfinder only to find out that the transmissions suck water and die and therefore comes with a warning on Car Complaints that says "Avoid like the plague!"internalaudit said:
On the other hand I've read that the Nissan Leaf is the most reliable car in the world. Only 1 in 10,000 have left someone stranded with a major failure, unlike the average of 1 in every 400.
http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/...5-times-more-reliable-than-conventional-cars/
EatsShootsandLeafs
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I agree. A catastrophe could be damning to any company but I feel Tesla is certainly more risk taking in this area.edatoakrun said:
That vid is nice. I'm really glad nissan is throwing effort at this. It's strange watching the steering wheel, it moves in tiny little atomic bumps in ways a human wouldn't, but I guess the passengers don't notice. Unfortunately, it's safe to assume the gen 2 leaf won't have the necessary hardware to ever have full self drive, whereas in theory the model 3 does, although I don't think anybody has a clue when it will actually hit public roads in a production version for consumers.
I think you forgot about summon that EAP has in your comparison.
EatsShootsandLeafs
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Impressive. I think we all knew these drivetrains would be good (EV), but that is excellent.IssacZachary said:
I've had six Nissans in my life. I like the company and although I don't have one now it's always a contender for any new car. They lag honda toyota a bit but you can't really go wrong with either of those companies quality-wise.
evnow
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We'll have to see how it behaves in less than well marked roads or when it rains etc ...edatoakrun said:
Afterall ping-ponging is a bug - not a feature anyone ships with
finman100
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what kind of data is Nissan collecting with pro-pilot?
Tsiah
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Why does the rain affect mileage?DaveinOlyWA said:
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