NavyCuda
Posts: 136
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Leaf Number: 329051

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Fri May 25, 2018 1:08 am

alozzy wrote:Each person's use case is a little different, there isn't really a norm. So all I'm really saying is limit the frequency of 100% charges and try not to charge to 100% SOC when it's hot out - both of which will go a long way to keeping the LEAF's battery pack healthy. Of course there will be times when neither is possible but on the flip side, sticking to a routine of 100% SOC charge all the time is almost a guarantee that your battery will suffer from premature degradation.


You are wrong.

I always charge my leaf to 100%. Even after a short run to the garbage dump. That’s almost 3 years of charging to 100% everyday the car gets used.

Foschas
Posts: 74
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Leaf Number: 320277
Location: Mass

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Fri May 25, 2018 4:08 am

NavyCuda wrote:
alozzy wrote:Each person's use case is a little different, there isn't really a norm. So all I'm really saying is limit the frequency of 100% charges and try not to charge to 100% SOC when it's hot out - both of which will go a long way to keeping the LEAF's battery pack healthy. Of course there will be times when neither is possible but on the flip side, sticking to a routine of 100% SOC charge all the time is almost a guarantee that your battery will suffer from premature degradation.


You are wrong.

I always charge my leaf to 100%. Even after a short run to the garbage dump. That’s almost 3 years of charging to 100% everyday the car gets used.



Ditto. 100% last three years. No leaf spy data but 2015 S 41K and still 12 bars.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Fri May 25, 2018 4:55 am

The 2015 pack may be the only one that isn't much affected by this parameter.
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alozzy
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Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Fri May 25, 2018 9:14 am

@NavyCuda Looking at some of your old posts, you live in Canada. That's likely why you've seen little impact with charging to 100% all the time. Also, as I mentioned, charging to 100% when it's not hot out and then driving the LEAF shortly thereafter won't hurt the battery. Heat is the enemy of the battery pack.

@Foschas seems to live in Kingston, MA which isn't a hot climate either.

Someone in Texas or Arizona and charging to 100% SOC all the time will not be so lucky, particularly if they charge when it's hot out or park the car in the heat with a high SOC. No battery chemistry tweaks are going to fix that. Just look at 30 kWh battery pack degradation issues for confirmation of that.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/arti ... ion_to_die

The manganese-based Li-ion batteries chosen for the Nissan Leaf and other EVs have excellent lab results. What may have been overlooked in the Nissan Leaf test is the damage that is being done when keeping the battery at high voltage and elevated temperature. As the coulombic efficiency tests reveal, these two conditions can cause more damage than cycling


https://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Public ... 015_OJ.pdf

The main conclusion that can be drawn regarding degradation is that temperature is the most influencing factor in cycle ageing as well as calendar ageing. The temperature of cells will be dependant on ambient temperature and current. State of charge level will also influence the degradation, but generally to a lesser extent than temperature. It is better to store a lithium-ion battery with a low state of charge rather than a high level. If possible it also good to keep the state of charge low at usage with small deviations. This may not be possible for all applications, especially not for BEVs as it will impede range
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jlv
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Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Fri May 25, 2018 9:51 am

Foschas wrote:Ditto. 100% last three years. No leaf spy data but 2015 S 41K and still 12 bars.

"No leaf spy data" means you don't know how much degradation you have, since 12 bars can still have significant loss.

I usually charge my 4 year old 2013 to 100%, 4 days a week (during the day, in a parking garage). While it is still at 12 bars, it has just about 14% loss.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Fri May 25, 2018 11:55 am

Why are 2015ers chiming in with VERY VERY bad advice? (Maybe a glance at the thread title is in order) Charging to 100% is bad for ALL Lithium chemistries. It has nothing to do with heat. Its all about voltage and the breakdown that occurs with sustaining the voltage on the edge for extended periods of time.

So you got a 2015 W/O LEAF Spy and the only thing you can claim is you haven't lost a bar AKA at least 15+% capacity? That is hardly "good" in any way. I have NEVER lost a bar over 4 different versions of the LEAF driving MUCH farther and guess what? Other than my much maligned 2016 S 30, the packs have exhibited unacceptably high degradation which is why I don't have them anymore. The 2018 is still being evaluated but has the likely potential of having 2015 like degradation and still be acceptable simply because it has a LOT TO LOSE. Your 2015's don't.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
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edorfox
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Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Sun May 27, 2018 9:45 pm

Perhaps this has been covered but, I notice my 2018 only shows 96% in LeafSpy when it shows 100% on the dash. I would guess that if it is common knowledge that charging to 100% is detrimental to the battery pack, Nissan knows it as well. Therefore, with battery degradation/warranty concerns, Nissan, in order to give the owner the satisfaction/confidence that his/her battery is "FULL", the dash shows 100% when it is actually a few "volts" short. Everyone wins! :lol:

Ed
2018 Leaf SV Gunmetal

LeftieBiker
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Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Sun May 27, 2018 10:05 pm

edorfox wrote:Perhaps this has been covered but, I notice my 2018 only shows 96% in LeafSpy when it shows 100% on the dash. I would guess that if it is common knowledge that charging to 100% is detrimental to the battery pack, Nissan knows it as well. Therefore, with battery degradation/warranty concerns, Nissan, in order to give the owner the satisfaction/confidence that his/her battery is "FULL", the dash shows 100% when it is actually a few "volts" short. Everyone wins! :lol:

Ed


Unfortunately the previous Leafs also showed a higher than actual SOC, but it wasn't enough of a buffer.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
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NavyCuda
Posts: 136
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Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Mon May 28, 2018 4:21 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Why are 2015ers chiming in with VERY VERY bad advice? (Maybe a glance at the thread title is in order) Charging to 100% is bad for ALL Lithium chemistries. It has nothing to do with heat. Its all about voltage and the breakdown that occurs with sustaining the voltage on the edge for extended periods of time.

So you got a 2015 W/O LEAF Spy and the only thing you can claim is you haven't lost a bar AKA at least 15+% capacity? That is hardly "good" in any way. I have NEVER lost a bar over 4 different versions of the LEAF driving MUCH farther and guess what? Other than my much maligned 2016 S 30, the packs have exhibited unacceptably high degradation which is why I don't have them anymore. The 2018 is still being evaluated but has the likely potential of having 2015 like degradation and still be acceptable simply because it has a LOT TO LOSE. Your 2015's don't.


Wrong.

All battery chemistries, lead acid, nicad, li-ion, li-polymer, etc, benifit from the cells being properly balanced. If anything the hardest things on the batteries are not balancing and not charging frequently enough. Those of you going to extremes to try and save your batteries are reducing their lifespan and then use those bad datapoints to further your erroreous theory.

The only major difference is that li-ion doesn’t need a maintenance charge and prolonged storage at 100% state of charge is not ideal.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Mon May 28, 2018 4:58 am

If anything the hardest things on the batteries are not balancing and not charging frequently enough.


Wrong. Being somewhat out of balance and with a moderate SOC doesn't harm lithium cells if they aren't pushed hard.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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