Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
edorfox said:
Perhaps this has been covered but, I notice my 2018 only shows 96% in LeafSpy when it shows 100% on the dash. I would guess that if it is common knowledge that charging to 100% is detrimental to the battery pack, Nissan knows it as well. Therefore, with battery degradation/warranty concerns, Nissan, in order to give the owner the satisfaction/confidence that his/her battery is "FULL", the dash shows 100% when it is actually a few "volts" short. Everyone wins! :lol:

Ed


In a nutshell, your LEAF shows only part of what is usable. LEAF Spy shows real SOC. You "can't" charge on 100% on a properly functioning BMS but LEAF will show 100% simply because that is as much charge as you will get.

The real issue becomes when you are at zero SOC on dash or "_ _ _" (this is not same as GOM version btw) since you still have miles in the tank. This makes LEAF Spy all that more valuable if you are needing that extra few miles.
 
NavyCuda said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Why are 2015ers chiming in with VERY VERY bad advice? (Maybe a glance at the thread title is in order) Charging to 100% is bad for ALL Lithium chemistries. It has nothing to do with heat. Its all about voltage and the breakdown that occurs with sustaining the voltage on the edge for extended periods of time.

So you got a 2015 W/O LEAF Spy and the only thing you can claim is you haven't lost a bar AKA at least 15+% capacity? That is hardly "good" in any way. I have NEVER lost a bar over 4 different versions of the LEAF driving MUCH farther and guess what? Other than my much maligned 2016 S 30, the packs have exhibited unacceptably high degradation which is why I don't have them anymore. The 2018 is still being evaluated but has the likely potential of having 2015 like degradation and still be acceptable simply because it has a LOT TO LOSE. Your 2015's don't.

Wrong.

All battery chemistries, lead acid, nicad, li-ion, li-polymer, etc, benifit from the cells being properly balanced. If anything the hardest things on the batteries are not balancing and not charging frequently enough. Those of you going to extremes to try and save your batteries are reducing their lifespan and then use those bad datapoints to further your erroreous theory.

The only major difference is that li-ion doesn’t need a maintenance charge and prolonged storage at 100% state of charge is not ideal.

Your statement implies that not charging to 100% ever means the cells will never be balanced and that is wrong. Cells balance ALL the time no matter what SOC you are at so they will always be close. Top end balance does not guarantee greater health especially since high SOC DOES guarantee greater stress on the anode/cathode.

You have a VERY limited range LEAF so its a better idea to balance cells on top end simply because it can give you slightly more range but for most people, they simply don't live in a climate that makes it a good idea.

I have a MUCH more useful LEAF than you do. So I do not need to balance the top end for the extra miles. I drove 161 miles the other day and still had about 10 left when I got home and that was on a single charge. I can live with that....for a long time!
 
Time will tell. How much time, just a few months. A short trip to the supermarket when the temp is 95 deg. F. Park the car in the sun because no shade is near. This battery will cook! Not even driving fast or fast charging. I think you get the picture. At the end of the summer many will be surprised how much battery degradation there actually is. Now range is 140 miles, next year 125 and so on. What will Nissan do? Drastically cut regeneration braking, (this is already in their playbook) alter fast charging, acceleration, who knows. 2018 owners get ready..
 
LeftieBiker said:
If anything the hardest things on the batteries are not balancing and not charging frequently enough.

Wrong. Being somewhat out of balance and with a moderate SOC doesn't harm lithium cells if they aren't pushed hard.
Yes and still will need to be balanced to get the maximum range that people expect.
 
When my ‘18 shows up it’ll get fully charged at least once every day it gets used. Only ~7more weeks, it has a VIN!
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Why are 2015ers chiming in with VERY VERY bad advice? (Maybe a glance at the thread title is in order) Charging to 100% is bad for ALL Lithium chemistries. It has nothing to do with heat. Its all about voltage and the breakdown that occurs with sustaining the voltage on the edge for extended periods of time.

So you got a 2015 W/O LEAF Spy and the only thing you can claim is you haven't lost a bar AKA at least 15+% capacity? That is hardly "good" in any way. I have NEVER lost a bar over 4 different versions of the LEAF driving MUCH farther and guess what? Other than my much maligned 2016 S 30, the packs have exhibited unacceptably high degradation which is why I don't have them anymore. The 2018 is still being evaluated but has the likely potential of having 2015 like degradation and still be acceptable simply because it has a LOT TO LOSE. Your 2015's don't.

Lol no advice, just my situation. I’m a just drive it kind of guy. Take care of it and it takes care of me. When it doesn’t we’ll break up and I’ll find another valiant steed. Really have fun, change your oil regularly and charge to what ever let’s you sleep at night.

P.s. how do you limit a base model to stop charging at a certain percentage?
 
Lol no advice, just my situation. I’m a just drive it kind of guy. Take care of it and it takes care of me. When it doesn’t we’ll break up and I’ll find another valiant steed. Really have fun, change your oil regularly and charge to what ever let’s you sleep at night.

The last sentence is advice, and contradicts the first one. There is no oil to be changed. And there is no way to limit charging on a post-2013 Leaf aside from unplugging it.
 
LeftieBiker said:
edorfox said:
Perhaps this has been covered but, I notice my 2018 only shows 96% in LeafSpy when it shows 100% on the dash. I would guess that if it is common knowledge that charging to 100% is detrimental to the battery pack, Nissan knows it as well. Therefore, with battery degradation/warranty concerns, Nissan, in order to give the owner the satisfaction/confidence that his/her battery is "FULL", the dash shows 100% when it is actually a few "volts" short. Everyone wins! :lol:

Ed

Unfortunately the previous Leafs also showed a higher than actual SOC, but it wasn't enough of a buffer.
Full charge on a Leaf is 4.11-4.12V per cell. 100% charge on single cell would be 4.18-4.19V. Nissan only charges the battery to about 96% of actual capacity. They intentionally did that to prolong battery life. They should have aimed slightly lower in my opinion but They did the testing and that's what Nissan decided on. How you charge or how often you charge doesn't really seem to make much difference. Where you charge makes a huge difference. Cars in the Southwest suffer a lot more degradation than cars in the Northwest. Deep south more so than Northeast and so on. Canadians and Europeans appear to be home free. Thirty KWH batteries age worse than twenty-four KWH. Beyond that opinions differ, some say never charge over 80% while others routinely charge to 100%. There's anecdotal evidence for nearly any combination you can think of. Charge it up, drive the hell out of it, enjoy the ride and be prepared to throw it away at the end of the day.

It's way too early to predict what the 40KWH batteries will be like but the news doesn't look encouraging.
 
They should have aimed slightly lower in my opinion but They did the testing and that's what Nissan decided on.

I know you aren't expressing faith in Nissan's battery testing, but just for the newbies; don't put faith in Nissan's battery testing!

It isn't where you charge, actually: it's how hot the weather is when you charge, wherever you are.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Lol no advice, just my situation. I’m a just drive it kind of guy. Take care of it and it takes care of me. When it doesn’t we’ll break up and I’ll find another valiant steed. Really have fun, change your oil regularly and charge to what ever let’s you sleep at night.

The last sentence is advice, and contradicts the first one. There is no oil to be changed. And there is no way to limit charging on a post-2013 Leaf aside from unplugging it.

No oil? I’ll be calling the dealers service Dept tomorrow! The audacity!
 
Foschas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Why are 2015ers chiming in with VERY VERY bad advice? (Maybe a glance at the thread title is in order) Charging to 100% is bad for ALL Lithium chemistries. It has nothing to do with heat. Its all about voltage and the breakdown that occurs with sustaining the voltage on the edge for extended periods of time.

So you got a 2015 W/O LEAF Spy and the only thing you can claim is you haven't lost a bar AKA at least 15+% capacity? That is hardly "good" in any way. I have NEVER lost a bar over 4 different versions of the LEAF driving MUCH farther and guess what? Other than my much maligned 2016 S 30, the packs have exhibited unacceptably high degradation which is why I don't have them anymore. The 2018 is still being evaluated but has the likely potential of having 2015 like degradation and still be acceptable simply because it has a LOT TO LOSE. Your 2015's don't.

Lol no advice, just my situation. I’m a just drive it kind of guy. Take care of it and it takes care of me. When it doesn’t we’ll break up and I’ll find another valiant steed. Really have fun, change your oil regularly and charge to what ever let’s you sleep at night.

P.s. how do you limit a base model to stop charging at a certain percentage?

If you had more details I could give you a more detailed answer. Use the charge timer
 
LeftieBiker said:
They should have aimed slightly lower in my opinion but They did the testing and that's what Nissan decided on.

I know you aren't expressing faith in Nissan's battery testing, but just for the newbies; don't put faith in Nissan's battery testing!

It isn't where you charge, actually: it's how hot the weather is when you charge, wherever you are.
And how long the battery cooks at a high temperature and high SoC combined.

I agree with John: as a matter of fleet longevity routine charging up to 90% instead of 94% would have been smart.
 
Just an update.

Hmmmm, maybe I have a defective battery but now I’m down 10% at 9000 miles. It shows up in Leaf Spy as 90% SOH and based the fact that it takes less kWh to go from 50% to 100%.
 
tuningin said:
Just an update.

Hmmmm, maybe I have a defective battery but now I’m down 10% at 9000 miles. It shows up in Leaf Spy as 90% SOH and based the fact that it takes less kWh to go from 50% to 100%.

Not good. I'm late for my July test but I'm waiting for a chance to charge to 100% and EQ the pack first. I haven't done that more than once since I got the car.
 
tuningin said:
Just an update.

Hmmmm, maybe I have a defective battery but now I’m down 10% at 9000 miles. It shows up in Leaf Spy as 90% SOH and based the fact that it takes less kWh to go from 50% to 100%.

Wow! You are sadly well on your way to a new pack!
 
Degradation is worse on the 2018 packs at least for me. What is worse is that the old methods of preserving the pack simply aren't working.

The pack takes longer to cool which is apparently degrading it.

FYI; Stored car in open lot from July 6th to July 17th at 42% SOC and still lost 1% capacity. Yes it was hot. Temps in the mid 90's which would make the parking lot all that much hotter. So it looks like the new LEAF can't be stored outside in the heat at "any" SOC?

As always, still gathering data.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/07/storing-my-2018-leaf.html
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Degradation is worse on the 2018 packs at least for me. What is worse is that the old methods of preserving the pack simply aren't working.

The pack takes longer to cool which is apparently degrading it.

FYI; Stored car in open lot from July 6th to July 17th at 42% SOC and still lost 1% capacity. Yes it was hot. Temps in the mid 90's which would make the parking lot all that much hotter. So it looks like the new LEAF can't be stored outside in the heat at "any" SOC?

As always, still gathering data.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/07/storing-my-2018-leaf.html

I've been too depressed to post the info, but despite a cooled garage that stops the pack from EVER getting hot, and not charging to 100% once yet, my car lost slightly over 1% capacity over about 5 weeks. Yours isn't degrading because it got hot - it's degrading because these "Lettuce Packs" appear to have the same calendar degradation issue as the original Canary packs...
 
LeftieBiker said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Degradation is worse on the 2018 packs at least for me. What is worse is that the old methods of preserving the pack simply aren't working.

The pack takes longer to cool which is apparently degrading it.

FYI; Stored car in open lot from July 6th to July 17th at 42% SOC and still lost 1% capacity. Yes it was hot. Temps in the mid 90's which would make the parking lot all that much hotter. So it looks like the new LEAF can't be stored outside in the heat at "any" SOC?

As always, still gathering data.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/07/storing-my-2018-leaf.html

I've been too depressed to post the info, but despite a cooled garage that stops the pack from EVER getting hot, and not charging to 100% once yet, my car lost slightly over 1% capacity over about 5 weeks. Yours isn't degrading because it got hot - it's degrading because these "Lettuce Packs" appear to have the same calendar degradation issue as the original Canary packs...
Welcome back to 2011. :twisted: EDIT: Lettuce is a perfect description! A friend tried to "quick" charge a 2018 yesterday at 50% SOC and only got 24 KW (1st QC). It was the new Kennewick DCQC that I know will put 48 KW into my 2011 pack. Ambient temp was about 95 F (normal summer temps for here).
 
Dave and Leftie,
Aren't you guys over reacting ? Nissan is not known for accurate BMS data, so a 1% change is just noise for now. 5% in under a year, confirmed by a recharging session would be reason to be depressed. Admittedly I suspect (expect, really) these packs will age poorly but that is a guess and I don't view your data as confirmatory in any way.

Leftie, your LEAF is leased, right ? Why are you wasting energy and money cooling the garage when the car stops being your problem in under 3 years ?
 
SageBrush said:
Dave and Leftie,
Aren't you guys over reacting ? Nissan is not known for accurate BMS data, so a 1% change is just noise for now. 5% in under a year, confirmed by a recharging session would be reason to be depressed. Admittedly I suspect (expect, really) these packs will age poorly but that is a guess and I don't view your data as confirmatory in any way.

Leftie, your LEAF is leased, right ? Why are you wasting energy and money cooling the garage when the car stops being your problem in under 3 years ?

Overreacting? Not I. I am just reporting facts for anyone who cares to know. I am still VERY pleased with my choice. Will I be in 2 years? We shall see but I definitely won't be using those per minute chargers much :lol:

Realize that if I dropped to 80% capacity, the car will still do well more than enough to get me by. I don't have the extreme commuting needs any more so all my road trips are pretty much for pleasure only nowadays!

Besides, if my pack is gonna die, it won't take long. I just posted a blog on my latest 700 mile 13 QC trip. Best part is I only saw 10 TBs after QC #13! ;)
 
Back
Top