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Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)
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DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
SageBrush said:Your post, your conclusions:DaveinOlyWA said:SageBrush said:Dave and Leftie,
Aren't you guys over reacting ? Nissan is not known for accurate BMS data, so a 1% change is just noise for now. 5% in under a year, confirmed by a recharging session would be reason to be depressed. Admittedly I suspect (expect, really) these packs will age poorly but that is a guess and I don't view your data as confirmatory in any way.
Leftie, your LEAF is leased, right ? Why are you wasting energy and money cooling the garage when the car stops being your problem in under 3 years ?
Overreacting? Not I.Degradation is worse on the 2018 packs at least for me. What is worse is that the old methods of preserving the pack simply aren't working.
The pack takes longer to cool which is apparently degrading it.
Realize I had NO degradation on my 2016. 180 QCs, nearly 30,000 miles. I drove 116. 2 miles on a single charge in Jan a week before she was totaled. With that metric; nearly EVERYTHING is worse...
SageBrush said:Dave and Leftie,
Aren't you guys over reacting ? Nissan is not known for accurate BMS data, so a 1% change is just noise for now. 5% in under a year, confirmed by a recharging session would be reason to be depressed. Admittedly I suspect (expect, really) these packs will age poorly but that is a guess and I don't view your data as confirmatory in any way.
Leftie, your LEAF is leased, right ? Why are you wasting energy and money cooling the garage when the car stops being your problem in under 3 years ?
The SOH doesn't float around on these packs as with the later 24kwh ones - it just drops, and drops, and drops some more. It drops less in Winter, and more in Summer. As for my lease: I can get household funds to buy the car when the lease ends, at no personal cost to me. I'm not going to do that if this continues. If it does, then I'll just cool the garage enough to make it tolerable to work on my bikes. Sure I can lease a hopefully better Leaf in three years - after about 18 months of substantially reduced range during this lease.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:SageBrush said:Dave and Leftie,
Aren't you guys over reacting ? Nissan is not known for accurate BMS data, so a 1% change is just noise for now. 5% in under a year, confirmed by a recharging session would be reason to be depressed. Admittedly I suspect (expect, really) these packs will age poorly but that is a guess and I don't view your data as confirmatory in any way.
Leftie, your LEAF is leased, right ? Why are you wasting energy and money cooling the garage when the car stops being your problem in under 3 years ?
The SOH doesn't float around on these packs as with the later 24kwh ones - it just drops, and drops, and drops some more. It drops less in Winter, and more in Summer. As for my lease: I can get household funds to buy the car when the lease ends, at no personal cost to me. I'm not going to do that if this continues. If it does, then I'll just cool the garage enough to make it tolerable to work on my bikes. Sure I can lease a hopefully better Leaf in three years - after about 18 months of substantially reduced range during this lease.
Well, not knowing your needs, even if my degradation is 10% a year, at the end of the lease, it will still be quite the drivable car having a range remaining that would be about where my 2016 was
Well, not knowing your needs, even if my degradation is 10% a year, at the end of the lease, it will still be quite the drivable car having a range remaining that would be about where my 2016 was
That is a good argument for leasing, but a poor one for buying off-lease. Three years after buying it you'd have 60% less range.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:Well, not knowing your needs, even if my degradation is 10% a year, at the end of the lease, it will still be quite the drivable car having a range remaining that would be about where my 2016 was
That is a good argument for leasing, but a poor one for buying off-lease. Three years after buying it you'd have 60% less range.
Well... no and no...
First off, I was addressing the lack of "suffering the last 18 months" of my lease. 2nd off; you would be no worse than 35 % of your range since you would be soon getting a brand new battery.
tuningin
Well-known member
I agree. SOH never went back up. Once it was gone, it was gone.
Makes me wonder if AESC lost their buyer because they realized that that company is not making good batteries.
Makes me wonder if AESC lost their buyer because they realized that that company is not making good batteries.
Dave: I'm not sure what exactly you are responding to. I didn't write anything about "suffering." I leased a 150+ mile range car that will turn into a roughly 100 mile range car well before the lease ends, making it unattractive to buy. So many of you think that getting a free battery after 5 years is great stuff. I would prefer to not have the battery degrading steadily and quickly, and losing range for those 5 years, and then start doing it again again right after the warranty replacement was installed. When this lease ends I hope to hell that someone else makes an EV with the options I want and need.
tuningin
Well-known member
DaveinOlyWA said:tuningin said:Just an update.
Hmmmm, maybe I have a defective battery but now I’m down 10% at 9000 miles. It shows up in Leaf Spy as 90% SOH and based the fact that it takes less kWh to go from 50% to 100%.
Wow! You are sadly well on your way to a new pack!
Well there is nothing that states that we are going to get new packs. In fact they are clear that their only contractual responsibility is to repair/replace what is necessary to get the SOH back above 30%.
Even if I get new packs, at this rate I will be getting two new packs by the end of the lease.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
LOL!!!! OMG, after all this time you are still on that page???tuningin said:DaveinOlyWA said:tuningin said:Just an update.
Hmmmm, maybe I have a defective battery but now I’m down 10% at 9000 miles. It shows up in Leaf Spy as 90% SOH and based the fact that it takes less kWh to go from 50% to 100%.
Wow! You are sadly well on your way to a new pack!
Well there is nothing that states that we are going to get new packs. In fact they are clear that their only contractual responsibility is to repair/replace what is necessary to get the SOH back above 30%.
Even if I get new packs, at this rate I will be getting two new packs by the end of the lease.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:Dave: I'm not sure what exactly you are responding to. I didn't write anything about "suffering." I leased a 150+ mile range car that will turn into a roughly 100 mile range car well before the lease ends, making it unattractive to buy. So many of you think that getting a free battery after 5 years is great stuff. I would prefer to not have the battery degrading steadily and quickly, and losing range for those 5 years, and then start doing it again again right after the warranty replacement was installed. When this lease ends I hope to hell that someone else makes an EV with the options I want and need.
I get ya and if you need that range, you will have a different perspective in 3 years. For me? Well, I don't know. It all depends. Right now, the network is exploding here. EA, WCGH, Central WA, EVGO are all on the move. I get that public charging is not viable for all but since my job change, my finances are a lot different along with my transpo needs.
I simply don't have to drive 50-200 miles ONE way for work anymore. Another thing is tech. We can think we will go thru 2 or 3 battery replacements in the next 100,000 miles but the reality is the replacement pack is likely to be much better than the OEM pack. Why do I say this? Cause there is only a small bit of evidence of this so far. Well in tech; advancement and improvements almost always happens exponentially so it wasn't far fetched to see only a little improvement in Lizard battery V 1.0. But expect that improvement to grow with the tech. In 5 years or whatever, I might get a pack that outlasts me.
Above 8 bars, whatever that means.tuningin said:Well there is nothing that states that we are going to get new packs. In fact they are clear that their only contractual responsibility is to repair/replace what is necessary to get the SOH back above 30%..
We can think we will go thru 2 or 3 battery replacements in the next 100,000 miles but the reality is the replacement pack is likely to be much better than the OEM pack. Why do I say this? Cause there is only a small bit of evidence of this so far.
As already implied above, Nissan can replace our packs with "refurbished" 9 bar packs, and they have already built the plant to make them. I think your optimism is...premature.
WetEV
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:We can think we will go thru 2 or 3 battery replacements in the next 100,000 miles but the reality is the replacement pack is likely to be much better than the OEM pack. Why do I say this? Cause there is only a small bit of evidence of this so far.
As already implied above, Nissan can replace our packs with "refurbished" 9 bar packs, and they have already built the plant to make them. I think your optimism is...premature.
Economics suggests you are being too pessimistic.
It costs money to swap a pack. If Nissan is really going to pay for 2 or 3 replacements they will not be happy. It is in Nissan's interest to improve the pack enough so they only rarely need to replace a pack once. Sure, might be more common in Dubai or similar.
If Nissan wanted to replace 4 bar lost packs with a 3 bar packs, they would be replacing a lot more packs, perhaps more than 4 times as many. The dealers would love it, as they bill Nissan for every warranty job they do.
And where is the source for all of those 3 bar lost packs? Where would Nissan get all of the 9 bar loser packs from?? I don't see where they could all come from... Do you?
kubel
Well-known member
The wording is designed to give them wiggle room to do a more cost-effective weakest cell replacement in order to restore capacity to a minimum level. In practice, they don't do this and just replace it with a brand new pack. But the warranty as worded gives them that option.
WetEV said:LeftieBiker said:We can think we will go thru 2 or 3 battery replacements in the next 100,000 miles but the reality is the replacement pack is likely to be much better than the OEM pack. Why do I say this? Cause there is only a small bit of evidence of this so far.
As already implied above, Nissan can replace our packs with "refurbished" 9 bar packs, and they have already built the plant to make them. I think your optimism is...premature.
Economics suggests you are being too pessimistic.
It costs money to swap a pack. If Nissan is really going to pay for 2 or 3 replacements they will not be happy. It is in Nissan's interest to improve the pack enough so they only rarely need to replace a pack once. Sure, might be more common in Dubai or similar.
If Nissan wanted to replace 4 bar lost packs with a 3 bar packs, they would be replacing a lot more packs, perhaps more than 4 times as many. The dealers would love it, as they bill Nissan for every warranty job they do.
And where is the source for all of those 3 bar lost packs? Where would Nissan get all of the 9 bar loser packs from?? I don't see where they could all come from... Do you?
Imagine a LEAF with 6 - 12 months left on the battery degradation warranty, and Nissan with a choice whether to swap in a new pack or a 10 bar pack. What what you do, as the economics advisor to Nissan ?WetEV said:LeftieBiker said:We can think we will go thru 2 or 3 battery replacements in the next 100,000 miles but the reality is the replacement pack is likely to be much better than the OEM pack. Why do I say this? Cause there is only a small bit of evidence of this so far.
As already implied above, Nissan can replace our packs with "refurbished" 9 bar packs, and they have already built the plant to make them. I think your optimism is...premature.
Economics suggests you are being too pessimistic.
It costs money to swap a pack. If Nissan is really going to pay for 2 or 3 replacements they will not be happy. It is in Nissan's interest to improve the pack enough so they only rarely need to replace a pack once. Sure, might be more common in Dubai or similar.
If Nissan wanted to replace 4 bar lost packs with a 3 bar packs, they would be replacing a lot more packs, perhaps more than 4 times as many. The dealers would love it, as they bill Nissan for every warranty job they do.
And where is the source for all of those 3 bar lost packs? Where would Nissan get all of the 9 bar loser packs from?? I don't see where they could all come from... Do you?
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:Imagine a LEAF with 6 - 12 months left on the battery degradation warranty, and Nissan with a choice whether to swap in a new pack or a 10 bar pack. What what you do, as the economics advisor to Nissan ?
Not to say it will not happen. It can't be common, as there isn't a large supply of 10 bar packs, as packs usually don't outlast the cars. Most pack replacements will need to be new.
The refurbs are made by picking out the "good" cells from failed packs.WetEV said:SageBrush said:Imagine a LEAF with 6 - 12 months left on the battery degradation warranty, and Nissan with a choice whether to swap in a new pack or a 10 bar pack. What what you do, as the economics advisor to Nissan ?
Not to say it will not happen. It can't be common, as there isn't a large supply of 10 bar packs, as packs usually don't outlast the cars. Most pack replacements will need to be new.
oleviking
Active member
I just finished going through the battery blues with a 2016 SV, lost 2 bars in 2017 at 7,500 miles, finally in April 2018 lost the last of my 4 bars and was given a new battery. This was ahead of the software update, which is lucky, because of everything I read, I would NOT have been given a new battery. The real problem with this loss of bars is that you don't have the vehicle you bargained for. I had only about 8 months of having full range, and then I had to start making compromises as to where I would drive. Not good. The good thing is, in October 2019 the lease is up. I'll have to look long and hard at where my second battery is to decide if I purchase this car, lease a 2019 LEAF or lease a Bolt.
Get the update, particularly if you are using the on-board meters and warnings to tell you when the battery is low.oleviking said:I just finished going through the battery blues with a 2016 SV, lost 2 bars in 2017 at 7,500 miles, finally in April 2018 lost the last of my 4 bars and was given a new battery. This was ahead of the software update, which is lucky, because of everything I read, I would NOT have been given a new battery. The real problem with this loss of bars is that you don't have the vehicle you bargained for. I had only about 8 months of having full range, and then I had to start making compromises as to where I would drive. Not good. The good thing is, in October 2019 the lease is up. I'll have to look long and hard at where my second battery is to decide if I purchase this car, lease a 2019 LEAF or lease a Bolt.
Prior to end of lease, measure actual battery capacity from the VLB warning with a metered charge to full and use LeafSpy to find out what voltage the lowest pair is at VLB. I think that is the best information available for decision making.
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