Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

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kosjet said:
So I think all this negativity about the 2018 Leaf is a bit unfair. Let's keep things in perspective here.
  • The battery warrany is 8 years/100k miles @ lets say 60% capacity
  • That means the worst case scenario is that you will have 91 miles of EPA range at the 8 year or 100k mile mark
It may not work for everyone, but there are a wide range of people that this would work for just fine. You have to ask yourself a few questions:
  • Is your average daily commute/round trip less than 60 miles a day?
  • How frequency do you take road trips that are longer than 120 miles (this assumes 1 QC trips with charging at destination)
  • Do you live in a moderate climate and/or have access to garage parking?
  • Do you have a 2nd car?
The question you have to ask yourself is how many days a year does this profile satisfy you? For me the answer is 98% which means that about 7 days a year we will need to take my wife's car instead of mine. Keep in mind that this is the worst case scenario. Considering that the Leaf is about $5000 cheaper than the Bolt for the same trim level and includes tech that is not available in the Bolt, I think the Leaf is quite the value.

Does it work for everyone? No.
Could it work for a good percentage of people? I believe so.
I agree completely. My 2013 Leaf is down to 85% capacity, but I have neither much need need nor the desire to drive long distances. If we have to go somewhere more than 30 miles away, we take my wife's Prius, which always reminds me that the Leaf is quite a sprightly car by comparison. So when the rebates come back and I get a 40 kWh 2019 Leaf with its driver-assist technology, I'm certainly not going to complain about its capacity.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Yet another "Nissan's screwup worked out fine for ME, so stop whining about YOUR Leaf problems!" argument. Very helpful.
Yup, but Joe adds spin to his story.
He "forgot" to mention that he bought the end of lease car at a dumpster price with a new battery placed under warranty.

Worked out ok for him but the people who bought the car upfront at anywhere near msrp and found soon after 5 years that the battery was degraded 35% and no warranty was in effect (exactly as Nissan planned) tend to view the LEAF and Nissan a lot less favorably. Similarly, the people who bought the LEAF at anywhere near msrp and then took a bath in depreciation due to battery degradation far in excess of Nissan's claims when they sold the car tend to feel screwed by Nissan.

Nissan erring in their assessment of battery degradation is human; their response to their error is awful. A reasonable automaker would have extended the degradation warranty: Nissan told people to take a hike if the warranty had expired by a day, and then added insult to injury to their early adopters by increasing the already expensive replacement battery.

This is not 'ancient history,' this is the reality today for the majority of 24 kWh LEAFs on the road.

Like Joe, I bought a heavily discounted LEAF and I am pretty confident I will obtain good value from the car for my car use profile. That in no way blinds me to the obvious: my good fortune was at somebody else's expense, and that was due to Corporate Nissan acting in a customer hostile manner I never expected to see outside of GM.
 
Looks like a good survey. I tried to do one here, but after trying to accommodate the million or so requests for additions, it ended up too long, and few bothered to fill it in properly. Never again!
 
LeftieBiker said:
Looks like a good survey. I tried to do one here, but after trying to accommodate the million or so requests for additions, it ended up too long, and few bothered to fill it in properly. Never again!

Yea I can totally see that! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm glad I found this existing survey. It seems to have a good balance of detail if you want it, but the core is there is you just want the nitty gritty. I'd be curious to see the 2018 trend line in a couple years. Or even if there are high mileage 2018s out there.
 
kosjet said:
LeftieBiker said:
Looks like a good survey. I tried to do one here, but after trying to accommodate the million or so requests for additions, it ended up too long, and few bothered to fill it in properly. Never again!

Yea I can totally see that! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm glad I found this existing survey. It seems to have a good balance of detail if you want it, but the core is there is you just want the nitty gritty. I'd be curious to see the 2018 trend line in a couple years. Or even if there are high mileage 2018s out there.

high mileage trend lines only confuses the issue. Unless you to are in that high mileage group, the data will be meaningless.

Here is a high mileage stat; Jennifer lives in Battery Hell (AKA; Phoenix) is at 94½% after 30,000....well probably near 35,000 miles. She lives in apt complex with UNCOVERED PARKING to boot... :shock:

We also have a dozen who are at 95% after 7000 to 13,000 miles all living in Northern tier states.

Have fun charting that.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
high mileage trend lines only confuses the issue. Unless you to are in that high mileage group, the data will be meaningless.

Here is a high mileage stat; Jennifer lives in Battery Hell (AKA; Phoenix) is at 94½% after 30,000....well probably near 35,000 miles. She lives in apt complex with UNCOVERED PARKING to boot... :shock:

We also have a dozen who are at 95% after 7000 to 13,000 miles all living in Northern tier states.

Have fun charting that.

But that's the beauty of the crowd. With enough data points, the individual variance is smoothed out by the general trend. You won't be able to predict specific individual performance, but understand what the general likelihood will be.
 
kosjet said:
So I think all this negativity about the 2018 Leaf is a bit unfair. Let's keep things in perspective here.
  • The battery warrany is 8 years/100k miles @ lets say 60% capacity
  • That means the worst case scenario is that you will have 91 miles of EPA range at the 8 year or 100k mile mark
It may not work for everyone, but there are a wide range of people that this would work for just fine. You have to ask yourself a few questions:

Your dealership should have provided a warranty information booklet that lays out the specifics. During the sale the saleswoman tried to assuage my TMS/degradation fears with the 100,000 mile warranty, but come to find out this is for complete battery failure. There is a separate warranty for battery capacity, which is 5 years/60k miles for SOH less than 70%. I can post a picture this evening if you're unable to find yours.

Perhaps the bigger kick below the belt is Nissan's remedy for batteries meeting the capacity loss warranty: they will no longer replace batteries, rather they repair them to bring their capacity back up to 70%. This was confirmed by my dealership after I camped out in their lobby until they called Nissan to answer my questions. Maybe you all knew that; I'm still new here and have yet to read all the pertinent threads.
 
spicythots said:
Your dealership should have provided a warranty information booklet that lays out the specifics. During the sale the saleswoman tried to assuage my TMS/degradation fears with the 100,000 mile warranty, but come to find out this is for complete battery failure. There is a separate warranty for battery capacity, which is 5 years/60k miles for SOH less than 70%. I can post a picture this evening if you're unable to find yours.

Perhaps the bigger kick below the belt is Nissan's remedy for batteries meeting the capacity loss warranty: they will no longer replace batteries, rather they repair them to bring their capacity back up to 70%. This was confirmed by my dealership after I camped out in their lobby until they called Nissan to answer my questions. Maybe you all knew that; I'm still new here and have yet to read all the pertinent threads.


Prove it
 
spicythots said:
Perhaps the bigger kick below the belt is Nissan's remedy for batteries meeting the capacity loss warranty: they will no longer replace batteries, rather they repair them to bring their capacity back up to 70%. This was confirmed by my dealership after I camped out in their lobby until they called Nissan to answer my questions.

That' s all the warranty claims to do.

However, there good practical reasons why that is unlikely, and no reported cases of anything other than replacement with a new battery.
 
WetEV said:
spicythots said:
Perhaps the bigger kick below the belt is Nissan's remedy for batteries meeting the capacity loss warranty: they will no longer replace batteries, rather they repair them to bring their capacity back up to 70%. This was confirmed by my dealership after I camped out in their lobby until they called Nissan to answer my questions.

That' s all the warranty claims to do.

However, there good practical reasons why that is unlikely, and no reported cases of anything other than replacement with a new battery.

He is confusing workmanship warranty with degradation warranty. A failed cell in a pack with 80% capacity will be replaced with a cell at 80% capacity. A degraded pack will be replaced with a new pack.

For all detractors, prove me wrong. Show me one instance where someone got a replacement pack that was not at 100%.

He got the warranty parameters completely wrong.
 
Lol, calm down guy-who-still-uses-blogspot. I could be wrong, but that is what the service department confirmed after having to call Nissan due to themselves not knowing the answer. I'll reference the warranty information booklet when I get home this afternoon.
 
spicythots said:
Lol, calm down guy-who-still-uses-blogspot. I could be wrong, but that is what the service department confirmed after having to call Nissan due to themselves not knowing the answer. I'll reference the warranty information booklet when I get home this afternoon.

There is no "could be" about it. You are spreading FUD that was resolved well before the first 2018 hit the street!

And you have all the resources needed to verify your information but instead you chose to pass on what the dealership told you...
 
I'm obviously new here. If I'm misinformed, wouldn't this be the type of conversation that needs to be had to clear the air? Your immediate default to accusing me of propagating FUD makes you seem unstable. Chill, guy. I love my 2018 SV, and I champion EV adoption in every conversation I have about it.

Having bought several new cars in my lifetime and having never been given incorrect information regarding a warranty, I don't think I was unreasonable in believing there was a kernel of truth in what the dealership told me.
 
spicythots said:
Your dealership should have provided a warranty information booklet that lays out the specifics. During the sale the saleswoman tried to assuage my TMS/degradation fears with the 100,000 mile warranty, but come to find out this is for complete battery failure. There is a separate warranty for battery capacity, which is 5 years/60k miles for SOH less than 70%. I can post a picture this evening if you're unable to find yours.

Perhaps the bigger kick below the belt is Nissan's remedy for batteries meeting the capacity loss warranty: they will no longer replace batteries, rather they repair them to bring their capacity back up to 70%. This was confirmed by my dealership after I camped out in their lobby until they called Nissan to answer my questions. Maybe you all knew that; I'm still new here and have yet to read all the pertinent threads.

Yes I have it and it's available online here: https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...ides/LEAF/2018/2018-LEAF-warranty-booklet.pdf

Here's what it says:
"LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY
COVERAGE
In addition to the lithium-ion Battery
Coverage for defects in materials or
workmanship, the lithium-ion battery
is also warranted against capacity
loss below nine segments as shown
on the vehicle’s battery capacity
level gauge for 96 months or 100,000
miles, whichever comes first."

Sorry where are you getting your warranty information? Maybe it's different in different countries? But this is the correct warranty for the US Leaf.
 
That's great- thanks for the response & civility kosjet. I was operating off of bad information from my dealership's service department apparently. In their defense they've sold a grand total of 2 Leafs, so their working knowledge of EVs is lacking. Non-Tesla EVs are a rarity in Texas, unfortunately.
 
spicythots said:
That's great- thanks for the response & civility kosjet. I was operating off of bad information from my dealership's service department apparently. In their defense they've sold a grand total of 2 Leafs, so their working knowledge of EVs is lacking. Non-Tesla EVs are a rarity in Texas, unfortunately.

No worries! :) . I lived in Texas for 10 years so glad to hear about a fellow Leaf driver in the great state. Also keep in mind that the 9 to 8 bar state of health is not yet known for the 2018 Leaf. Nissan is reserving a lot of wiggle room for themselves. But based on the previous generation Leafs (Leaves?) , it seems to be around 60-65% SOH. Happy driving!
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
He is confusing workmanship warranty with degradation warranty. A failed cell in a pack with 80% capacity will be replaced with a cell at 80% capacity. A degraded pack will be replaced with a new pack.

For all detractors, prove me wrong. Show me one instance where someone got a replacement pack that was not at 100%.

He got the warranty parameters completely wrong.
The 24kWh warranty replacements in Australia are reportedly being delivered with 93-95% SOH. http://ozleaf.proboards.com/thread/398/replacement-battery-pack?page=7&scrollTo=14704. These might still be new packs with some calendar ageing but they aren’t 100%.
 
dwl said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
He is confusing workmanship warranty with degradation warranty. A failed cell in a pack with 80% capacity will be replaced with a cell at 80% capacity. A degraded pack will be replaced with a new pack.

For all detractors, prove me wrong. Show me one instance where someone got a replacement pack that was not at 100%.

He got the warranty parameters completely wrong.
The 24kWh warranty replacements in Australia are reportedly being delivered with 93-95% SOH. http://ozleaf.proboards.com/thread/398/replacement-battery-pack?page=7&scrollTo=14704. These might still be new packs with some calendar ageing but they aren’t 100%.

That is not unusual for 24 and 30 kwh packs as the numbers seem to "puff up" a bit after the battery has a few cycles under its belt. My 30 kwh LEAF did the same with day one stats ahr 81.54 (would rise to 82.34 in a few days) Hx 99.66 (103ish)

But as mentioned before, the 2018 stats act COMPLETELY different in that they do not wander up and down. They either stay the same or drop. Never goes up, not even .01%.

This is all a bit fishy to me as battery measuring devices are simply...well not that good.

Is it possible, there is another math error in here somewhere?
 
dwl said:
The 24kWh warranty replacements in Australia are reportedly being delivered with 93-95% SOH. http://ozleaf.proboards.com/thread/398/replacement-battery-pack?page=7&scrollTo=14704. These might still be new packs with some calendar ageing but they aren’t 100%.
That is interesting news and supports my suspicion held for years that would be the case.
It also would explain why Nissan has increased the battery cost: they have a limited supply they want to last until they do not have to support the car anymore (2025-ish).

If we see the same in the USA, I'll be convinced.
 
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