Reddit: Nissan Leaf e+ revealed with longer range at 2019 CES

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Leaf15 said:
SageBrush said:
Leaf15 said:
Ops, the car is loosing on average 20 miles a night to keep battery worm,
BS
May be in Colorado it is BS, not in PA (we have urban mountain areas as well where temp it 10-15F lower than average). It also depends if car is kept in garage or outside even in the same area(as it makes big deviations in temperatures). I take it you are not an authority for North East while living at place where "Winters are mild with an average daily high temperature of 45 degrees Fahrenheit and days reaching 60 degrees are not uncommon". We have 20F during day here lately. Think what happens during night? Low single digits F it is.
Besides, colleague had no reason to exaggerate or bad mouth his brand new car. BTW, he also mentioned it was ~ 15 miles in the late November when it was 45F day average (not night). I am kind of feeling guilty for suggesting him Model 3 LR, because it seems to fit his needs. But there is nothing else with longer range, so he would have to figure out how to do those trips. I overlooked parasitic BMS drain as I never experienced it on my Leaf; and thankfully, I never will.
I live in an area where under 0F, while not every day during the winter, is pretty common and - 15F is reason to remark about the weather. My car lives outside.

UNLIKE you, I actually own a Tesla Model 3. In my winter climate the vampire drain is ~ 1 -2 miles per 24 hours. One thing that does happen, though it is true of all batteries, is that battery capacity drops with temperature. As the battery warms up the range returns. Your friend noted a drop in range but both of you did not understand the cause or significance.
 
Leaf15 said:
arnis said:
They are different, vehicle is 5mm higher (likely pack is 5mm thicker).
The 5mm may be used for active air cooling gap between battery and floor. The battery seems to be sealed though, so it may be the same size actually. But we have no info on it yet.

There is a lot of airgap on 24 30kWh Leaf. Battery is not same size. Battery exterior windflow has almost no effect on temperature loss.




Model 3 efficiency is not excellent in cold weather. Below freezing wayy to much energy is wasted on heating the battery for driving
But also Teslas are not efficient. Parasitic draw on these cars is ridiculous. Tesla doesn't keep battery warm while parked.
 
This is actually something I've been wondering myself - on average, how much electricity do thermal management systems in EVs consume? Is it negligible? Is it significant? And how do we know - is there any objective data or studies on this that anyone can point to?
 
Kieran973 said:
This is actually something I've been wondering myself - on average, how much electricity do thermal management systems in EVs consume? Is it negligible? Is it significant? And how do we know - is there any objective data or studies on this that anyone can point to?
I don't know of any but digging around on TMC might turn up some answers. (e.g. Googling for stuff like vampire drain site:teslamotorsclub.com kWh night)

For instance, one guy states https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/vampire-drain-is-still-a-major-downside-after-5-years.138130/page-3
I gave up on sleep mode (latency)and do use Teslafi (so pinging car every minute I think).
Here in Canada it is cold. And even the AP cameras are heated all night.
So when I leave mine for a week, it uses nearly 5 kWh AC per day. Wild big number.
I know because I submeter the circuit.
Maybe limit the results to updates in the past year via Google's tools.

I found https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/idle-battery-drain.137522/page-2#post-3262232 and https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tip-for-3-4-battery-drain-overnight.131149/.

I'm sure you can find way more. Unfortunately, it might be difficult to separate TMS from other "stuff" the car is doing.
 
I did find this on one of the Chevy Bolt forums:

"It's been hot the last 3 weeks in Nebraska, well over 90. Twice I have had the A/C on and parked for 10-15 min. Then I noticed a tiny sliver of thermal management on the energy screen. So it can and will operate with the car on. Not just plugged in. It used .2 KWH in 15 min."

https://www.chevybolt.org/forum/82-charging-batteries/12002-battery-thermal-management.html

So at least according to this one random person, .8 kWh for one hour of TMS in 90+ degree heat. If you almost never see temps like that in your area, or if you have a way to protect your car somewhat from them (parking in a shaded garage, etc.), this might not matter so much. But if it's 90 degrees for 8 hours a day, 90 days out of the year (lots of places in the south and midwest experience this), then that would be .8 x 8 x 90 = 576 kWh a year. And if your annual driving consumes 3,000 kWh a year (12,000 miles/4 miles per kWh), then your annual TMS consumption would be 576/3,000 = 19.2% of your driving consumption - not insignificant.

At $.12 per kWh, your TMS would cost $69.12 per year or $691.20 over 10 years. This of course doesn't include winter. If you are also unfortunate enough to experience 8 hours a day, 90 days a year of sub-freezing temperatures, then your TMS consumption could be double (40ish percent of your driving consumption, roughly $140 a year in electricity costs). That's over 2 grand in extra electricity over 15 years. So, definitely less expensive than an out of warranty battery replacement, but that still seems like kind of a lot of consumption....
 
^^^
And each vehicle is different.

Example discussion for gen 2 Rav4 EV: http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1060. TonyWilliams should be able to chime in with anything more definitive/corrections. There's a reference to gen 1 Volt in there too.

It sounds like if you wanted to keep your Rav4 EV battery cooled, you needed to leave the car in READY mode (green car w/arrows on Leaf).
 
BMS consumption in the summer should be theoretically less, because of it is using AC loop to cool the battery. Similar to Heat pump vs. HV resistive heater difference. Winters are not as good as most "big ass" battery EV do not bother with heat pump (hopefully upcoming Kona and Niro are exceptions) at mild temperatures and rely exclusively on HV Resistive Heaters (4 times less efficient then HP). Some, like Tesla 3, does not even have any heaters in battery loop - it simply shorting coils in motor to produce heat (even worse than dedicated electric heater). But Model 3 still do not hold battery in optimal range as in cold weather regen/range is reduced while operating motor gradually heating up the battery to optimal range eventually, after ~ 10 miles (probably result of not having dedicated heater). In my commute scenario - Model3 may not get to optimal temperature, so it would always drive in reduced efficiency, so is my Leaf as regen/range is reduced on cold battery as well.
Telsa S and X, Bolt may be better to access BMS impact as those have fully implemented heater loops.

Knowing the efficiency ratio of heat pump (HP) to HV Resistive Heater (4:1 observed in energy screen on Leaf, but HP is probably less powerful than electric heater, so true ratio may be less), one can estimate possible impact in winter based off summer figures. Maybe assuming 1:2 summer/winter impact in consumption.
 
Leaf15 said:
Winters are not as good as most "big ass" battery EV do not bother with heat pump (hopefully upcoming Kona and Niro are exceptions) at mild temperatures and rely exclusively on HV Resistive Heaters (4 times less efficient then HP).

At temperatures where heating the battery is critical, the heat pump is about as efficient as a resistive heater.

Energy use for TMS depends on climate and car usage. Most people will see zero, or nearly so. Hot place will see cooling, cold places will see heating. Hot places with spirited driving and multiple QCs will see the most cooling.

Battery chemistry isn't easy to understand... Adding active cooling is easy to understand.

When Nissan's battery chemistry was failing in the 2011 and 2012, people blamed the thing they could understand, no active cooling.

Active cooling isn't helpful for most people, most of the time. It doesn't run, so it doesn't make any difference, at best.
 
Kieran973 said:
This is actually something I've been wondering myself - on average, how much electricity do thermal management systems in EVs consume? Is it negligible? Is it significant? And how do we know - is there any objective data or studies on this that anyone can point to?

Nissan went the efficient way - almost zero. There are very rare instances when heating is activated (just before battery freezes).
Tesla went the other way - it heats the battery during preconditioning and at the beginning of the trip like crazy as it has absolutely no regen or any charge acceptance below 0*C. Leaf handles cold much better (though handles hot much worse).
Other manufacturers are somewhere in between.
 
Nissan USA web site posted Nissan Leaf Plus introduction and subscribe for availability:

https://www.nissanusa.com/vehicles/electric-cars/2019-leaf-plus.html#be-the-first
 
We could easily browse Nissan Japan in Google Chrome with translate to see what options are available for Leaf Plus. It looks like Nissan only offers 2 trim levels and All around view is an option on lower trim.


=== Here is manufacturer options on lower trim level (probably SV level in US)
Seats available in Gray and Black both fabric and leather
Winter weather package
Electric Brake and Backup alarm
ProPilot with + All Around View (only available in top trim on 40kWh) + Electric Brake (US probably would get this with all trims as standard)
All Around View also available as stand alone option

Wheel/Tire sizes are the same as in 40 kWh version.

===

https://www3.nissan.co.jp/vehicles/new/leaf/simulation.html#configure/BABL9/AQ-BGkRgJuDug/version
 
Top Trim standard features: e + G (2WD)
Manufacturer's suggested retail price 4,729,320 yen

Main equipment list

Visibility
Intelligent auto light system (interlocked with front wiper, with light sense sensing "Omoiyari Light" function)
High beam assist
Door mirror with heater
Intelligent room mirror
Super UV cut green glass <front>
UV cut heat insulating green glass <Front door>
Privacy glass (with UV cut heat insulation function) <Riyadora, Back door>
Heat line rear window (with timer)
Front vehicle speed sensing stepless wiper (with mist function)
Rear crimp style wiper
Battery saver (room lamp, headlamp)
LED head lamp (high / low beam, with auto leveler, with signature lamp)
Front halogen fog lamp
Electric retractable remote control colored door mirror with side turn lamp (with key lock interlocking storage function)
Professional pilot parking
Intelligent Around View Monitor (with moving object detection function)
High Brightness LED Rear Combination Lamp

Driver's seat around
Genuine leather-wrapped steering wheel (with steering heater)
Steering switch (meter · display control, audio, hands free phone, professional pilot)
Electric parking brake
Power switch (with switch light)
Glove box (damper, with light)
e-Pedal
Advanced drive assist display (7 inch color display) (with driving computer, clock, outside temperature display)
USB power socket <front seat>
Vehicle speed responsive electric power steering
Tilt steering
Centralized door lock (back door interlocking)
Comfort flasher
Sun visor (driver's seat: vanity mirror, with ticket holder, passenger's seat: with vanity mirror)
Power window (all seats: water resistant type, driver's seat: one touch, operation after key off, with pinch prevention mechanism)
Displayable cruising distance
Plug-in indicator light
Battery fuel gauge / capacity meter / thermometer
Output limit indicator light
Power Meter
Eco indicator
Liquid crystal odd twin trip meter
Shift position indicator
Outside air thermometer
Half door warning light
Headlamp missing alarm
Key forget alarm
Parking brake return missing alarm
Power window switch lighting <Driver's seat>
Room lamp
Key interlocking room interior lighting system
Power supply socket (12 VDC)
Front / rear door pocket (with bottle holder)
Electrical shift (with B range)
Intelligent Key (driver's seat, the front passenger seat back door charging port lid opener, charging connector lock release function, with operation confirmation function, two key)
Cup holder <front 2 pieces>

Sheet / interior
Sheet ground leather
Front seat quick comfort seat with heater seat
Seat back pocket <driver's seat / passenger's seat>
Rear foldable seat (6: 4 split)
Finisher Center Cluster
Finisher center console, power window switch base
Finisher install panel
Driver's seat lifter (ratchet type)
Adjustable head restraint <Driver's seat, Passenger's seat>
Head rest <3 rear seats>
Assist grip <driver's seat, passenger's seat, rear seat, with damper>
Left-luggage room lamp
Charging cable storage net (with cable storage bag)

air conditioning
Heat Pump System (Power Saving Heating System)
PTC element heater (5 kW)
Clean filter (with deodorizing function)
Full automatic air conditioner with plasma cluster (skin moisturizing, disinfection function attached, push type, navi screen display)

Audio / Navigation
Timer air conditioner
Remote charge
Timer charging
BOSE (R) Energy Efficient Series Sound System & 7 Speaker
NissanConnect dedicated in-vehicle communication unit (TCU [Telematics Control Unit])
Glass antenna (for terrestrial digital broadcasting)
Roof antenna (foldable type)
EV exclusive NissanConnect navigation system (built-in terrestrial digital broadcasting) (7 inch wide display, hands free phone, VICS [FM multiplex], voice command, Bluetooth (R) compatible, DVD / CD playback function, Apple CarPlay (TM), Android Auto, USB Connection, iPod (R) compatible, AM / FM radio, AUX terminal)
Before riding Air conditioner (remote)
ETC unit (built-in type)

Exterior
e + exterior exterior (front bumper)
Rear Roof Spoiler
Plating outside door handle
Normal charging port (with charging connector locking mechanism), rapid charging port, charging port light
Tire emergency repair kit (spare tire less)
Charging cable (with control box, 200 V for 7.5 m)

mechanism
6 kW ordinary charger (for automotive use)
Stabilizer <Front, rear>
Front ventilated disc brake
Rear ventilated disc brake
Regenerative cooperative brake

safety
LDW (lane departure warning)
VDC (Vehicle dynamics control [including TCS function])
ABS (anti-lock brake system)
EBD (electronic control braking force distribution system)
Hill start assist
Front & Back Sonar
Prohibition of entrance sign detection
Pro pilot
Intelligent DA (wandering alarm)
Intelligent trace control (cornering stability improvement system)
Three-point seat belt with all-seat ELR
Double pretensioner seat belt with driver's seat 2 stage load limiter
Pre-tensioner seat belt with passenger's seat 2 stage load limiter
When front seatbelt is not worn Warning light & warning sound (seat belt reminder)
Front seat seat height adjustment type seat belt anchor
Pretensioner seat belt with load limiter <Rear left and right>
ISO FIX compatible anchor for child seat <Rear left and right 2 seats>
Brake assist
Intelligent ride control (vehicle body vibration suppression system)
Brake pedal retraction suppressing mechanism
LED type high mount stop lamp
Immobilizer (Approved items by Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport)
Vehicle approach notification device
Child safety door lock
Airbag deployment interlocking hazard lamp
Intelligent Emergency Brake
SRS air bag system <front seat>
SRS side air bag system <front seat>
SRS curtain airbag system
Tread mistake Collision prevention assist
BSW (rear side vehicle detection alarm)
RCTA (vehicle detection alarm at backward)
Intelligent LI (Lane departure prevention support system)
 
e + X (2WD)
Manufacturer's suggested retail price 4,162,320 yen

Main equipment list

Visibility
Intelligent auto light system (interlocked with front wiper, with light sense sensing "Omoiyari Light" function)
High beam assist
Antiglare Room Mirror
Super UV cut green glass <front>
UV cut heat insulating green glass <Front door>
Privacy glass (with UV cut heat insulation function) <Riyadora, Back door>
Heat line rear window (with timer)
Front vehicle speed sensing stepless wiper (with mist function)
Rear crimp style wiper
Battery saver (room lamp, headlamp)
LED head lamp (high / low beam, with auto leveler, with signature lamp)
Electric retractable remote control colored door mirror with side turn lamp (with key lock interlocking storage function)
Back view monitor (color, vehicle width / distance / expected course line display function attached)
High Brightness LED Rear Combination Lamp

Driver's seat around
Genuine leather-wrapped steering wheel (with steering heater)
Steering switch (meter · display control, cruise control, audio, hands-free phone)
Foot-operated parking brake (foot release type)
Power switch (with switch light)
Cruise control
Glove box (damper, with light)
e-Pedal
Advanced drive assist display (7 inch color display) (with driving computer, clock, outside temperature display)
USB power socket <front seat>
Vehicle speed responsive electric power steering
Tilt steering
Centralized door lock (back door interlocking)
Comfort flasher
Sun visor (driver's seat: vanity mirror, with ticket holder, passenger's seat: with vanity mirror)
Power window (all seats: water resistant type, driver's seat: one touch, operation after key off, with pinch prevention mechanism)
Displayable cruising distance
Plug-in indicator light
Battery fuel gauge / capacity meter / thermometer
Output limit indicator light
Power Meter
Eco indicator
Liquid crystal odd twin trip meter
Shift position indicator
Outside air thermometer
Half door warning light
Headlamp missing alarm
Key forget alarm
Parking brake return missing alarm
Power window switch lighting <Driver's seat>
Room lamp
Key interlocking room interior lighting system
Power supply socket (12 VDC)
Front / rear door pocket (with bottle holder)
Electrical shift (with B range)
Intelligent Key (driver's seat, the front passenger seat back door charging port lid opener, charging connector lock release function, with operation confirmation function, two key)
Cup holder <front 2 pieces>

Sheet / interior
Front seat quick comfort seat with heater seat
Seat back pocket <driver's seat / passenger's seat>
Rear foldable seat (6: 4 split)
Finisher Center Cluster
Finisher center console, power window switch base
Finisher install panel
Driver's seat lifter (ratchet type)
Adjustable head restraint <Driver's seat, Passenger's seat>
Head rest <3 rear seats>
Assist grip <driver's seat, passenger's seat, rear seat, with damper>
Left-luggage room lamp
Charging cable storage net (with cable storage bag)
Sheet fabric (bio PET)

air conditioning
Heat Pump System (Power Saving Heating System)
PTC element heater (5 kW)
Clean filter (with deodorizing function)
Full auto air conditioner (push type, navi screen display)

Audio / Navigation
Timer air conditioner
Remote charge
Timer charging
NissanConnect dedicated in-vehicle communication unit (TCU [Telematics Control Unit])
4 speaker
Glass antenna (for terrestrial digital broadcasting)
Roof antenna (foldable type)
EV exclusive NissanConnect navigation system (built-in terrestrial digital broadcasting) (7 inch wide display, hands free phone, VICS [FM multiplex], voice command, Bluetooth (R) compatible, DVD / CD playback function, Apple CarPlay (TM), Android Auto, USB Connection, iPod (R) compatible, AM / FM radio, AUX terminal)
Before riding Air conditioner (remote)
ETC unit (built-in type)

Exterior
e + exterior exterior (front bumper)
Rear Roof Spoiler
Plating outside door handle
Normal charging port (with charging connector locking mechanism), rapid charging port, charging port light
Tire emergency repair kit (spare tire less)
Charging cable (with control box, 200 V for 7.5 m)

mechanism
6 kW ordinary charger (for automotive use)
Stabilizer <Front, rear>
Front ventilated disc brake
Rear ventilated disc brake
Regenerative cooperative brake

safety
LDW (lane departure warning)
VDC (Vehicle dynamics control [including TCS function])
ABS (anti-lock brake system)
EBD (electronic control braking force distribution system)
Hill start assist
Front & Back Sonar
Prohibition of entrance sign detection
Intelligent trace control (cornering stability improvement system)
Three-point seat belt with all-seat ELR
Double pretensioner seat belt with driver's seat 2 stage load limiter
Pre-tensioner seat belt with passenger's seat 2 stage load limiter
When front seatbelt is not worn Warning light & warning sound (seat belt reminder)
Front seat seat height adjustment type seat belt anchor
Pretensioner seat belt with load limiter <Rear left and right>
ISO FIX compatible anchor for child seat <Rear left and right 2 seats>
Brake assist
Intelligent ride control (vehicle body vibration suppression system)
Brake pedal retraction suppressing mechanism
LED type high mount stop lamp
Immobilizer (Approved items by Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport)
Vehicle approach notification device
Child safety door lock
Airbag deployment interlocking hazard lamp
Intelligent Emergency Brake
SRS air bag system <front seat>
SRS side air bag system <front seat>
SRS curtain airbag system
Tread mistake Collision prevention assist
 
Redacted and moved Ionic mini review to Other EV forum' Ionic topic. No way to delete it here as there was a reply. Will erase content instead.
 
Looks like Nissan and Leaf both live in alternative universe. Yet another non sense news:

Nissan Leaf E+ may lose 25 miles of range in higher trims, report says: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/nissan-leaf-e-plus-trim-range-disparity-report/

62 kWh for 215 Miles on top trims, lovely.

I am sure, if I would drive Ionic like I drove my Leaf, I would get the same range with 28 kWh battery. What is going on at Nissan? Did they lost all electrical engineering talents or may be they all left for Hyundai?
 
Leaf15 said:
Looks like Nissan and Leaf both live in alternative universe. Yet another non sense news:

Nissan Leaf E+ may lose 25 miles of range in higher trims, report says: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/nissan-leaf-e-plus-trim-range-disparity-report/
...
I am sure, if I would drive Ionic like I drove my Leaf, I would get the same range with 28 kWh battery. What is going on at Nissan? Did they lost all electrical engineering talents or may be they all left for Hyundai?
It could be an issue of weight and wheels on higher trims. It was during development of gen 3 Prius (https://priuschat.com/threads/most-obscure-gen-iii-facts-way-out-there.65226/page-5#post-905261). I'm guessing marketing was demanding 50 mpg or it was already promised.

We'll see.

I suspect Nissan was constrained by several dimensions: dimensions of the vehicle (e.g. exterior, ground clearance, space for the pack), cost, energy density of the chemistry they chose, aerodynamics, weight and max cargo + passenger weight requirements, what marketing wanted (for equipment on each trim level vs. cost vs. price to the consumer), and how much they could change vs. 40 kWh Leaf w/o incurring huge costs.

edit: https://insideevs.com/base-nissan-leaf-e-most-range/ and the AutoNews article it points to has a bit more info.
 
cwerdna said:
It could be an issue of weight and wheels on higher trims.
According to Japanese e-plus online ordering the wheel options, specifically tires are identical to Leaf with 40 kWh, so wheels may not be the explanation. Ironically, in Prius case, marketing was demanding higher MPG, but in Nissan case, they end up with even less efficient car, which was not exactly an efficiency champion in the first place.
 
It's always about the tires.
The 16-inchers on the S are shod in 205/55/16 Bridgestone Ecopia rubber, while SV and SL use 215/50/17 Michelin Energy Saver A/S tires.
Narrower tires are significantly more efficient (noticeably better CdA). Plus different rubber compound changes things on the rollers as well.

Anyone with SL SV who chooses to downgrade to S wheels and tires will get the benefit.

Also there is nothing wrong with Leaf's efficiency. Especially in winter. Compared to e-tron, I-Pace, Model S, Model X (even though they are bigger, difference is size does not match difference in efficiency).
 
Anyone with SL SV who chooses to downgrade to S wheels and tires will get the benefit.

I really, really don't intend to disagree with you about everything, Arnis, but the Gen I Leaf has wheel wells that are too large for the 16" wheels - they suck power through aerodynamic drag as air gets pulled into those caverns. It's pretty clear that either the car was originally designed for the 17" wheels that in the end came only with the SL until 2015 (?), or Nissan just didn't care about the extra drag, which would be stupid but not inconsistent with their overall philosophy of "Just let the salespeople promise anything and everything." I'm not sure about the 2018+ Leaf, but since the 17" wheels and tires fit, I'd guess that they too provide less drag. Now 16" wheels with LRR tires vs 17" wheels with much higher resistance tires, THAT might well give you an improvement overall - especially at lower speeds.
 
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