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evnow
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:03 pm

Reddy wrote:Well written and concise summary. I'll speculate that Leaf2 will be released as a 2018 model in October with the same 6.6KW L2, but a 60 KWh battery and 150 KW Chademo (high end model).

I doubt the 200 mile model is coming this year.

First, it's likely an LG battery that would require a lot of design, engineering etc.

Second, if they had that in the plan - esp a higher priced one, the good time to announce it is now - so that people don't jump ship and buy a Bolt.

Anyone buying a Leaf now don't care about 200 mile $37k car - so the announcement won't eat into MY17 sales, anyway.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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NavyCuda
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:28 pm

Sounds more like it will be a Nissan battery and not LG.

reeler
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:17 pm

NavyCuda wrote:Sounds more like it will be a Nissan battery and not LG.


They said air cooled so that means it won't be a LG in all likelihood.
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edatoakrun
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:26 am

reeler wrote:
NavyCuda wrote:Sounds more like it will be a Nissan battery and not LG.


They said air cooled so that means it won't be a LG in all likelihood.

LG batteries are in BEVs today without liquid or refrigerant cooling of the packs, so I wouldn't agree with that conclusion.

AFAIK, Nissan has not said where GEN 2 LEAF batteries would be sourced, other than in general statements that as batteries moved to commodity status, it would no longer need to manufacture them itself.

Gen 1 LEAF packs more accurately would be described as conductively cooled, as no significant airflow is used to cool them.

But air-cooled seems to now have become the popular term for any pack that does not require a coolant or refrigerant loop:

edatoakrun wrote:...
A few more significant quotes from the article I linked yesterday:

A few further snippets on the next Leaf came from a question-and answer session earlier in the day with Takao Asami, a Nissan senior vice president of research and advanced engineering....

Asami noted that the company was preparing for DC fast-charging at rates up to 150 kilowatts, though he questioned the practicality of higher rates for mass-market electric cars.

And he confirmed that the next Leaf would continue with an air-cooled battery pack, saying changes in cell chemistry had "significantly reduced" concerns over battery durability.

"I am not concerned any more" about the durability of electric-car batteries, he concluded...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... med/page-2

I agree with both of of those statements.

An ~150 kW charge rate is probably all that will be required in the immediate future by mass-market BEVs with total battery capacities from about 30 to 60 kWh, though trucks buses, and luxury BEVs with larger packs could benefit from higher charge rates (likely also with significantly higher costs per kWh) if and when such high-kW DC stations are ever deployed on a large scale.

And Nissan had it right a decade ago when it realized their was no future in developing BEV battery designs that required intensive active cooling, as the reduced cost and higher efficiency of ~passively cooled packs would inevitably lead to obsolescence of liquid or refrigerant based active cooling designs, as battery prices declined.

It's very cheap both in manufacture and operation to provide airflow to a battery pack and call it air-cooled.

Benefits in terms of pack life are not likely to be very significant, since air, an excellent insulator, is a lousy conductor of heat with very low thermal capacity.

But we may (IMO) see air cooling added to the LEAF GEN 2 pack, which might well be more valuable as a promotional slogan, than a cost-effective method of actually extending battery life.
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Joe6pack
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:21 am

As a mechanical engineer and the former owner of an air-cooled 1987 Porsche, I do know that air as a heat transfer fluid works. It all depends on the design of the battery pack heat transfer mechanisms and materials. I don't think we are talking about a lot of heat here - certainly nothing like an ice.

On the hottest days here in GA, my battery temps only get up to around 110 degrees F - and that is while level 3 charging in a parking lot in full sun. They could also use conditioned air for the cooling with that system only kicking in under certain circumstances (i.e. sitting in a parking lot level 3 charging with no natural air flow). This shouldn't be difficult to model.

I think this whole battery degradation thing is somewhat overblown as all batteries will degrade with time and use. Anyone who has ever owned a laptop computer knows that. It can be disguised with extra capacity or mitigated with heating/cooling (cost), but it is still going to happen. I think Nissan should have done a better job of testing their product in all climates and setting expectations. One hopes that they have learned their lesson and that the next iteration will yield a better result.
2012 Leaf SL leased October 4th, 2012
Braselton, GA

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:47 am

reeler wrote:
NavyCuda wrote:Sounds more like it will be a Nissan battery and not LG.


They said air cooled so that means it won't be a LG in all likelihood.


what???

even Musk says the goal is batteries without TMS...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 6190 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:48 am

evnow wrote:
Reddy wrote:Well written and concise summary. I'll speculate that Leaf2 will be released as a 2018 model in October with the same 6.6KW L2, but a 60 KWh battery and 150 KW Chademo (high end model).

I doubt the 200 mile model is coming this year.

First, it's likely an LG battery that would require a lot of design, engineering etc.

Second, if they had that in the plan - esp a higher priced one, the good time to announce it is now - so that people don't jump ship and buy a Bolt.

Anyone buying a Leaf now don't care about 200 mile $37k car - so the announcement won't eat into MY17 sales, anyway.


surprised you think that Nissan "recently" started over at square one.

as far as announcing a product early? pretty much the dumbest idea EVER...

It should be obvious Nissan is trying to clear out inventory with the unreal pricing programs they have going right now. Sorry but you don't have a fire sale unless you plan to have a fire
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 6190 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
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reeler
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:27 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:It should be obvious Nissan is trying to clear out inventory with the unreal pricing programs they have going right now. Sorry but you don't have a fire sale unless you plan to have a fire


They have had crazy pricing for a couple years mainly driven by the fact that there were better EV options at the price they were asking, e.g., e500, Soul, Golf. I think pricing will remain low to move a dated model with sub-par Nav. With a new model competitive with the Bolt and Model 3, we will see similar pricing for Nissan.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:30 pm

reeler wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:It should be obvious Nissan is trying to clear out inventory with the unreal pricing programs they have going right now. Sorry but you don't have a fire sale unless you plan to have a fire


They have had crazy pricing for a couple years mainly driven by the fact that there were better EV options at the price they were asking, e.g., e500, Soul, Golf. I think pricing will remain low to move a dated model with sub-par Nav. With a new model competitive with the Bolt and Model 3, we will see similar pricing for Nissan.


I am more than willing to dispute your claim... care to post any examples from any period of 2015 or the first half of 2016?

or should I say simply "well is MUCH crazier now!"

The sales have more than doubled the last 2 months of 2016 and I suspect Jan (a traditionally slow month) will be even better...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 6190 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1
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reeler
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:49 pm

I bought my 2016 SV about a year ago for $7600 off MSRP plus a free charger. With the $7500 Federal and $6000 state incentives, a pretty cheap car for sure.
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