LeftieBiker
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:26 pm

I think that the Bolt's claimed 200HP is probably as accurate as the apparent Nissan claim of 147HP for the Leaf 2. There is little doubt that the Bolt will be faster in street drag races. If, however, the Leaf 2 can do 0-60 in, say, 7.0 seconds, and can also outrun the Bolts' rather low-set speed limiter* as the current Leaf can, and also lacks torque steer, then the Bolt will be preferred by young "hot hatch" enthusiasts but the Leaf will be preferred by most others.


* Most likely indicates lower overall gearing then the Leaf.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Interleaf
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:22 pm

GM has said that the Bolt motor is high-torque, low speed, offering a quieter ride. So the gearing is lower. The bolt may be 200 HP vs. Leaf's 147, but it is torque x reduction-ratio that counts in acceleration. The Leaf has a higher reduction ration and can probably beat the Bolt in a drag race.
SL-QC, #5000+ blue - Delivery June 20, 2011 the day after the Calif. $5000 rebate ran out to $2500. Coincidence? Nah, dealer ***** Nissan is front-running.

Interleaf
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:36 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:At 238 a few more people start to think hmmm maybe this would work for me and ask how hard is it to find charging stations and how long will it take to recharge. Then they take a look at the size of the car and how not cool it is for the price tag and move on.

At 29.9 - 10 = $19.9K they want range, which is 160, and they want service which is "first service is 75,000 miles - just a change of coolant". Then they think so what that in a blue moon they have to wait 30 minutes to charge the thing.
SL-QC, #5000+ blue - Delivery June 20, 2011 the day after the Calif. $5000 rebate ran out to $2500. Coincidence? Nah, dealer ***** Nissan is front-running.

LeftieBiker
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:41 pm

Interleaf wrote:GM has said that the Bolt motor is high-torque, low speed, offering a quieter ride. So the gearing is lower. The bolt may be 200 HP vs. Leaf's 147, but it is torque x reduction-ratio that counts in acceleration. The Leaf has a higher reduction ration and can probably beat the Bolt in a drag race.


Where on Earth are you getting this info? GM marketing-speak isn't technical specs. If the Leaf is faster in top speed, then assuming similar motor designs, it would have less power off the line, because it would have "high" gearing (lower numerical reduction ratio) as opposed to the Bolt's "low" gearing, which was apparently designed specifically to win drag races with other EVs. A heavier Leaf, with less HP and about the same torque as the Bolt, plus a final drive ratio designed for about the same 94MPH top speed as the current Leaf, isn't going to beat the Bolt in the quarter mile, or to 60. It will eventually outrun the Bolt, again assuming all of the above is true.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Interleaf
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:50 pm

edatoakrun wrote:A small displacement (200-600 CC) ICE generator, run at highest-efficiency rpm, to recharge the battery pack. Generator output would not be sufficient to drive the vehicle, just enough to extend the battery pack range to the next convenient recharge location.

As long as Lithium ion's energy density is only 9,000/250 * 85%/28% = 12 times less than gasoline, there will have to be a solution for EVs to compete with ICE. Huge batteries at such high costs is not that solution.

The solution is a genset, about 5 kW, that would take you to the next charge station, or back home, or even let you drive in the city but not too fast.

Good to see the Note SEV taking over Japan hybrids. That ought to teach all the SEV naysayers and deniers (and believe me there are a lot of them who don't understand the concept of a SEV) a lesson they will never forget: Leave your idealisms at home by your armchair.
SL-QC, #5000+ blue - Delivery June 20, 2011 the day after the Calif. $5000 rebate ran out to $2500. Coincidence? Nah, dealer ***** Nissan is front-running.

Interleaf
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:56 pm

cwerdna wrote:Because the engine is so wimpy and underpowered, unless you "code" it, you would NOT want to take it up uphill grades at highway or even leisurely speeds.
If the engine could be turned on at 80% SoC (50% is not good enough), then 25 kW is far more than plenty to go uphilll at highway speeds. The problem is not the i3. The problem is that enviro-fascist socialist in CARB, who could never get a job in the private sector due to incompetence, who is dictating Rex SoC at 5%.
SL-QC, #5000+ blue - Delivery June 20, 2011 the day after the Calif. $5000 rebate ran out to $2500. Coincidence? Nah, dealer ***** Nissan is front-running.

cwerdna
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:40 am

Interleaf wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Because the engine is so wimpy and underpowered, unless you "code" it, you would NOT want to take it up uphill grades at highway or even leisurely speeds.
If the engine could be turned on at 80% SoC (50% is not good enough), then 25 kW is far more than plenty to go uphilll at highway speeds. The problem is not the i3. The problem is that enviro-fascist socialist in CARB, who could never get a job in the private sector due to incompetence, who is dictating Rex SoC at 5%.

Well, yeah, because you're depending on a big buffer in the battery. 25 kW is about 33.5 hp. It's obvious that by itself is woefully insufficient for highway speeds up steep grades.

As for blaming CARB, well, there are plenty of green CA HOV sticker PHEVs that don't have this problem, have a much more powerful ICE and have modes like mountain mode.

I don't know the full story as to to what's the deal as some of them are wrong. One explanation I recently heard on https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/ (I can't find the comment) was that BMW worked w/CARB in creating this BEVx classification in order to get more credits which yielded these limits. I don't know if that's true or not and also don't understand why non-CA and non-CARB US vehicles are also equally crippled. Frankly, I don't care much since the i3 REx is a POS from a reliability point of view besides being expensive. I don't like its styling at all either.

FWIW, I found these two:
http://insideevs.com/bmw-i3-rex-bevx-re ... leash-rex/ - I've actually met the author many years ago. He's very active in the i3 FB group. I don't know how accurate his reporting is.
http://bmwi3.blogspot.com/2016/06/bmw-i ... appen.html

BTW, as I said, I've heard of much worse experiences than John's going up steep grades. One guy on the i3 FB group when he was limited to 35 or 40 mph mentioned either big rig of fuel tanker trucks zooming by him. And, as you saw, I pointed to two 9 mph max cases.

Again, I don't care that much about doing research for the real explanation for the crippling. I would never buy or lease one with its current implementation, dodgy reliability, high price and ugly (in my eyes) styling.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

jdcbomb
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:08 am

Nissan has put their Leaf 2.0 electric motor with what appears the same 147 hp and 236 tq specs into an Infiniti concept race car. That concept is a little under 2,000 lbs, RWD, and does 0-60 mph in 5.5 s.

Does anyone want to surmise what the projected 0-60 time will be for a FWD, 3,500 lbs, Leaf 2.0 will be with the same motor? I'm thinking around 7.5 s.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:10 am

evnow wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:OK, EVNow, you are an outlier, nothing wrong with that. And I am also talking about the average trip statistic. 60 miles or less.

https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/subject_areas/national_household_travel_survey/daily_travel.html


I don't think you are getting what I'm saying. Look at the entire distribution of miles travelled - not just average. People don't buy a vehicle for their "average" needs. They buy to fulfill 90%+ of their needs - not 50% of their needs.

ps : my commute is 10 to 20 miles roundtrip.


Your statement is an opinion based on your needs. In my experience, people buy a vehicle based on 100% of their needs. The reality is licensing and insurance changes have made it difficult to do what I used to do and that is have several cars designated for specific uses. I now am required to pay full price on every vehicle and that price is several fold higher than it used to be.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

edatoakrun
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:40 am

jdcbomb wrote:Nissan has put their Leaf 2.0 electric motor with what appears the same 147 hp and 236 tq specs into an Infiniti concept race car...

If the reports are correct that the new power-train has been mated with a "30-kW-hr battery pack pack" in this concept, then I think it indicates likely that the Gen two LEAF will likely be offered in some markets, perhaps including the USA, with a ~30 kWh pack, an incrementally improved version of the pack currently used in the Gen one.

Nissan could probably make a profit on a ~30 kWh Gen two, even at the very low price you can buy a Gen one for today.

And this could also mean that the "40 kWh" pack in the leaked specs, not a larger pack, is actually the long-range pack option available at the intro.

...Underneath that retro skin is an electric motor powertrain closely related to the one that will power the next-generation Nissan Leaf. Developed and tweaked by Nissan Advanced Powertrain, the rear-mounted motor makes 148 hp and 236 lb-ft and drives the rear wheels. That’s grunt enough, Infiniti says, to propel the 1,962-pound Prototype 9 to 60 mph in less than 5.5 seconds. Top speed is limited to 105 mph, down from a theoretical maximum of more than 130 mph. The 30-kW-hr battery pack stacked ahead of the driver should, Infiniti claims, allow for about 20 minutes of hard track driving...

http://www.motortrend.com/news/infiniti ... irst-look/
no condition is permanent

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