lorenfb
Posts: 1405
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:41 am

SageBrush wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Really surprised you bought a used Leaf, especially after joining this forum and doing "due diligence" prior to your
purchase, e.g. even utilizing LeafSpy. Implicit in your posts is that you view your Leaf, i.e. > 3yrs old, purchased
for less than $8K, with near new battery capacity (59 - 61 Ahrs), and no necessary repairs, as a marginal purchase.
Sorry for your naivety and misfortune.


So far, no misfortune at all -- quite the contrary. We love our LEAF and I remain reasonably confident that I will not have future regrets.
I have not been paraphrasing my ownership when I criticize LEAF battery technology and the corporation. However, consider the particulars of my positive experience:

I learned enough to buy an usually healthy battery -- without doubt an outlier in both battery and owner.
I baby the car
It has never lived in a warm, let alone hot, environment
We use it for in-town errands
I paid $6,300 before shipping and taxes, after tax credit
I came to the table realizing that Nissan Corporate would likely not support me in the future
I will not suffer financial hardship if the car goes to the junk-yard today

In short, I recognize that the car is hobbled but it performs admirably the little I ask of it for a great price. But my anecdote is so far away from average or even 2 SD that it is irrelevant to the discussion. I frame my comments thinking of the group that bought the car for $25-$30k for daily duties up to 75 miles per charge.

And LEAF the car aside, Nissan Corporate stinks in their EV customer support


Yes, we can all agree that Nissan should have done an extensive evaluation on the early Leaf's battery chemistry
before production and have been more acqueiscent to owners' range degradation issues. Other than the Leaf's
battery, i.e. notwithstanding any product with a battery, most owners would agree that the Leaf's reliability
has been excellent.

You'll have many years of enjoyable service, given that your Leaf is in a better climate than my '13 now with 53K miles,
12 bars, and 51 Ahrs. Mine has received no special care; daily charge to 100%, 2-3 QCs per week - max 10 min,
battery temp never exceeds 35 deg C, and max discharge to 18 Ahrs.

edatoakrun
Posts: 4751
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:46 am

SageBrush wrote:...So far, no misfortune at all..

Your misfortune was in driving other vehicles for the six years you could have been driving a LEAF.

Having myself (with benefit of hindsight) made the correct decision in 2011, and been more fortunate than you in owning and driving a Gen one LEAF since then, It's likely my next BEV will be a LEAF, Gen one or two, depending on what we find out in the next few weeks about the two.
no condition is permanent

SageBrush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:11 am

I was thinking of cars as tools ..

I have expensive, excellent quality Hitachi power tools for demanding work outside and garbage tools I bought at Harbor Freight for the non-demanding chores inside the house. Both are excellent value so long as I don't try to use the garbage tools outside.

And in a somewhat similar vein, I bought an expensive EVSE from Clipper Creek. I figured the extra money was worth quality components for safety and long term use, and because CC has a sterling reputation in customer support. The other day I found a little plastic pin stuck in my EVSE handle. I didn't know if it came from the CC, one of my cars, or another EVSE. You can bet I didn't call Nissan. I called CC and received phenomenal support even after it was clear that the pin did not originate from their product.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

User avatar
EVDRIVER
Posts: 5888
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:51 am

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:07 am

lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Really surprised you bought a used Leaf, especially after joining this forum and doing "due diligence" prior to your
purchase, e.g. even utilizing LeafSpy. Implicit in your posts is that you view your Leaf, i.e. > 3yrs old, purchased
for less than $8K, with near new battery capacity (59 - 61 Ahrs), and no necessary repairs, as a marginal purchase.
Sorry for your naivety and misfortune.


So far, no misfortune at all -- quite the contrary. We love our LEAF and I remain reasonably confident that I will not have future regrets.
I have not been paraphrasing my ownership when I criticize LEAF battery technology and the corporation. However, consider the particulars of my positive experience:

I learned enough to buy an usually healthy battery -- without doubt an outlier in both battery and owner.
I baby the car
It has never lived in a warm, let alone hot, environment
We use it for in-town errands
I paid $6,300 before shipping and taxes, after tax credit
I came to the table realizing that Nissan Corporate would likely not support me in the future
I will not suffer financial hardship if the car goes to the junk-yard today

In short, I recognize that the car is hobbled but it performs admirably the little I ask of it for a great price. But my anecdote is so far away from average or even 2 SD that it is irrelevant to the discussion. I frame my comments thinking of the group that bought the car for $25-$30k for daily duties up to 75 miles per charge.

And LEAF the car aside, Nissan Corporate stinks in their EV customer support


Yes, we can all agree that Nissan should have done an extensive evaluation on the early Leaf's battery chemistry
before production and have been more acqueiscent to owners' range degradation issues. Other than the Leaf's
battery, i.e. notwithstanding any product with a battery, most owners would agree that the Leaf's reliability
has been excellent.

You'll have many years of enjoyable service, given that your Leaf is in a better climate than my '13 now with 53K miles,
12 bars, and 51 Ahrs. Mine has received no special care; daily charge to 100%, 2-3 QCs per week - max 10 min,
battery temp never exceeds 35 deg C, and max discharge to 18 Ahrs.



I agree the car has been reliable but they did do extensive testing on the pack according to them, I'm confident they knew about the degradation issues if they did what they said they did in high temp testing. If they use the same chemistry and have the same degradation issues it will hurt them because it will be used to sell against them in competing new models, they are not the only game in town anymore.

desiv
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:10 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2015
Leaf Number: 018850
Location: Lincoln City, Oregon

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:08 am

SageBrush wrote:
lorenfb wrote:Sorry for your naivety and misfortune.


So far, no misfortune at all -- quite the contrary. We love our LEAF and I remain reasonably confident that I will not have future regrets

+1
Same here..
I knew what I was getting into when I bought my Leaf used, and I'm still very happy with my "naivety and misfortune."
:lol: :lol: :lol:

desiv
2012 Leaf SL - Silver (gone - traded in)
2017 Bolt LT - Red

SageBrush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:34 am

Perhaps because I am not a Nissan victim, I don't really question when Nissan knew the extent of the problems their battery tech would encounter in higher temperature climates. My beef is their response and refusal to accept responsibility; and their miserable treatment of their early adopters. Anybody not aware of the behaviour should read @Drees for a representative case history.

I know that Nissan is much better these last 12 months or so but I frankly chalk that up to a cynical positioning in advance of the LEAF2 debut. And even now Nissan Corporate is nothing to appreciate. Another thread here this week has a post from a fellow who is 5 months past warranty in a car with SEVEN bars. It is no great leaf of faith to imagine that the car lost over 65% of capacity in under 5 years yet Nissan in its generosity still charged $2000 for a pack replacement.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

internalaudit
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:34 am
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2032

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:03 am

SageBrush wrote:Perhaps because I am not a Nissan victim, I don't really question when Nissan knew the extent of the problems their battery tech would encounter in higher temperature climates. My beef is their response and refusal to accept responsibility; and their miserable treatment of their early adopters. Anybody not aware of the behaviour should read @Drees for a representative case history.

I know that Nissan is much better these last 12 months or so but I frankly chalk that up to a cynical positioning in advance of the LEAF2 debut. And even now Nissan Corporate is nothing to appreciate. Another thread here this week has a post from a fellow who is 5 months past warranty in a car with SEVEN bars. It is no great leaf of faith to imagine that the car lost over 65% of capacity in under 5 years yet Nissan in its generosity still charged $2000 for a pack replacement.


Would Tesla have replaced a defective battery for free on its ninth year?

SageBrush
Posts: 1495
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:13 am

internalaudit wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Perhaps because I am not a Nissan victim, I don't really question when Nissan knew the extent of the problems their battery tech would encounter in higher temperature climates. My beef is their response and refusal to accept responsibility; and their miserable treatment of their early adopters. Anybody not aware of the behaviour should read @Drees for a representative case history.

I know that Nissan is much better these last 12 months or so but I frankly chalk that up to a cynical positioning in advance of the LEAF2 debut. And even now Nissan Corporate is nothing to appreciate. Another thread here this week has a post from a fellow who is 5 months past warranty in a car with SEVEN bars. It is no great leaf of faith to imagine that the car lost over 65% of capacity in under 5 years yet Nissan in its generosity still charged $2000 for a pack replacement.


Would Tesla have replaced a defective battery for free on its ninth year?

You can read the Tesla warranty.

A better question: would Tesla have called a battery a couple of years old already showing 20+ percent degradation non-defective ?
Of course not. It falls way outside any reasonable consumer expectation ... respectfully excluding a few people on this forum.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

internalaudit
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:34 am
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2032

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:18 am

SageBrush wrote:
internalaudit wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Perhaps because I am not a Nissan victim, I don't really question when Nissan knew the extent of the problems their battery tech would encounter in higher temperature climates. My beef is their response and refusal to accept responsibility; and their miserable treatment of their early adopters. Anybody not aware of the behaviour should read @Drees for a representative case history.

I know that Nissan is much better these last 12 months or so but I frankly chalk that up to a cynical positioning in advance of the LEAF2 debut. And even now Nissan Corporate is nothing to appreciate. Another thread here this week has a post from a fellow who is 5 months past warranty in a car with SEVEN bars. It is no great leaf of faith to imagine that the car lost over 65% of capacity in under 5 years yet Nissan in its generosity still charged $2000 for a pack replacement.


Would Tesla have replaced a defective battery for free on its ninth year?

You can read the Tesla warranty.

A better question: would Tesla have called a battery a couple of years old already showing 20+ percent degradation non-defective ?
Of course not. It falls way outside any reasonable consumer expectation ... respectfully excluding a few people on this forum.


Warranty doesn't include capacity, I believe and is good for eight years. Unless you are telling me it has changed with your link.

$2k is a pittance compared to door handles at $1,600 a piece.

If Nissan charged $5k or more for the battery replacement, I'd understand the hate but $2k is a fraction of the entire battery price, isn't it?

I would think Nissan's margins are slimmer compared to Tesla's on the S and X? I'm just throwing a conjecture here.

NeilBlanchard
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:02 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Oct 2014
Leaf Number: 306278

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:27 am

A little less than 8 hours until we learn about the new LEAF!

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