EVDrive
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 776
Location: SF Bay Area, Ca

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:46 am

@ Tony

A Model 3 with 75 kWh and AWD for me... as long as it's around $50k.

However, a cool Nissan Leaf 2.0 with a 250 mile range could get me to reconsider as they were first to market with an EV in 2011 when most other auto manufacturers said it was impossible to produce an affordable EV. I'd like to continue to support Nissan for their EV leadership.
Last edited by EVDrive on Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
- SF Bay Area
- 2011 Leaf traded in at 46,000 miles, 3 years, lost 1 bar
- Upgraded to 2014 Rav4EV with Quickchargepower.com CHAdeMO port, 53,000 miles
- Tesla Model 3 reserved

EVDrive
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 776
Location: SF Bay Area, Ca

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:42 am

I'll plus one here and say, NOBODY CARES if you have a 24, 30 or even a 40 kWh battery pack in your EV and it works great for you (edited to include 40 kWh pack fans in my rant as I currently have 40+ kWh pack in my Rav 4 and it is painfully not enough range and I can't even use the heater when I need it which my passengers hate). Awesome for you, you are an extreme outlier in the car buying public. Enough of these ridiculous irrelevant to the masses comments that keep taking up space on this forum; we all know you exist, no need to add little value to the discussion as it goes without saying.

I've driven 98,000 EV miles between my Leaf and RAV4 EV's over the last 6 years and my 2011 Leaf was incredibly Inconvenient and a real nightmare time suck to accommodate my regular 100 mile a day driving needs. I was wasting hours every week sitting at the quick charger. It was aweful, however, I did it because gas kills and we need to move as a society to solar powered transport. I can't tell you how stressful it is to get a low battery warning 2x a day for my daily commute and god forbid I wanted some cabin heat, I surely wouldn't make it. The 100 miles on a charge that Nissan advertised was a joke, the 71 EPA miles of my Leaf was also a joke in the cold after some degradation.

Some things for the 24, 30 and 40 kWh battery pack EV fan crowd to remember:
- Driving in the cold, ~half the year, reduces EV range by 20-30%.
- City people often live in apartments and can't charge everyday at their home and don't want to spend hours a day at the quick charger.
- People need range flexibility. For example, Country folk need range to drive into the city from their backwoods homes, incase it's not painfully obvious, most small and medium sized towns in the US don't have quick chargers yet and if they do, they have one and it's likely broken when you need it. Growing up in southern Oregon, we had to drive 45 miles one way to get to the nearest city with a movie theatre, karate lessons etc. We did this 3-4 times a week and sometimes we liked to go to the mall which was a 150 mile round trip.
- Increasing range and decreasing charge times are critically important to move from 1% to 100% of new car sales having a plug.
- Bigger batteries have a longer useful life which will help people who buy used cars or keep cars 10+ years.
- Driving 75mph reduces range. My dad is 78 and he still likes to drive 75-80 mph. I drive 75-80mph if I can afford the range reduction costs.

Chevy definitely got it right with the Bolt and a 238 mile range. That's basically 4x the EPA range of my 2011 Leaf which was a range limited nightmare. I would still be driving my 2011 Leaf today if they offered a 200 mile battery upgrade. Surprise, Nissan did not offer a battery upgrade. Boo hoo, I moved on.

Bring on the long range EV options. I'm ready, I paid my dues in 100's of hours I spent at the quick charger. And sure, keep the short range EV battery as an option for people who only drive a few thousand miles a year.

evnow wrote:
Durandal wrote:An advantage of a large kWh battery pack even if you don't need it will be longer life of the battery pack due to it being charged/discharged less, and when it is discharged, to a lower depth of discharge. A 60kWh battery pack that has 75% capacity remaining still offers a lot of range of 180 miles, while 75% remaining on a 40kWh is 120 miles. Even when it gets down to 50% capacity, the 60kWh would offer 120 mile range, versus the 80 mile range of the 40kWh at 50%. That will improve resale values as the usability of the vehicle still remains, years later.


Add to that cold weather, high way speed hits. Even a 200 mile EV becomes a 150 mile EV with no degradation. 40 kWh would be < 100 miles.

All this talk of whether 40 kwh or 60 kwh is "enough" reminds me of those days when we were thinking whether 1GB RAM was enough.

Hopefully in a few years 60 kWh is cheap enough for EVs around $15k. I think good range for US is 3 hours of highway driving in winter, with 20% buffer. This way you fast charge to 80% in 30 minutes and off you go for 3 more hours. About 400 miles EPA.

All this assuming, we won't have a nuke war soon.
Last edited by EVDrive on Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
- SF Bay Area
- 2011 Leaf traded in at 46,000 miles, 3 years, lost 1 bar
- Upgraded to 2014 Rav4EV with Quickchargepower.com CHAdeMO port, 53,000 miles
- Tesla Model 3 reserved

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6546
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:55 am

I'll plus one here and say, NOBODY CARES if you have a 24 or a 30 kWh battery pack in your EV and it works great for you. Awesome for you, you are an extreme outlier in the car buying public. Enough of these ridiculous irrelevant to the masses comments that keep taking up space on this forum; we all know you exist, no need to add little value to the discussion as it goes without saying.


Great rant! Now, um, who exactly is arguing that 24kwh is fine...?

Oh, right: the reason I came to this topic. It is now being said that Nissan won't be delivering Leaf "2"s ordered in September until March of 2018. This is definitely NOT all right with me, as I have no desire to spend another Winter driving a car with 50-55 miles of Winter range. Is anyone else thinking about, er, Bolting from the Leaf 2 deal?
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

EVDrive
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:21 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 776
Location: SF Bay Area, Ca

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:42 am

@ LeftieBiker. Not wanting to call anyone out in particular, read page 80 :) . 24/30/40 kWH is not enough range for mass EV adoption. I have a 46 kWh battery in my Rav 4 and it is not even good for 100 miles in the winter at freeway speeds.

I agree it is not good news if true that the new (greater than 40kWh) Leaf will not be delivered until 2018. I'm looking at this thread in particular because I need a longe range EV as well and I don't want to buy a Bolt because I don't want to support Chevy and their anti fuel efficiency standards public policy. So my options are Leaf 2.0 and the Tesla model 3 at this point. The Bolt is a very tempting option I would agree especially if you are still in a 50 mile range Leaf. You've paid your dues as well.

Nissan is clearly having some issues getting the new Leaf out the door. I hope they get their next Leaf in order and launched quickly. The speed at which Chevy got an affordable longe range EV out the door with the Bolt becomes a more impressive accomplishment each day that the competition can't match it.

LeftieBiker wrote:
I'll plus one here and say, NOBODY CARES if you have a 24 or a 30 kWh battery pack in your EV and it works great for you. Awesome for you, you are an extreme outlier in the car buying public. Enough of these ridiculous irrelevant to the masses comments that keep taking up space on this forum; we all know you exist, no need to add little value to the discussion as it goes without saying.


Great rant! Now, um, who exactly is arguing that 24kwh is fine...?

Oh, right: the reason I came to this topic. It is now being said that Nissan won't be delivering Leaf "2"s ordered in September until March of 2018. This is definitely NOT all right with me, as I have no desire to spend another Winter driving a car with 50-55 miles of Winter range. Is anyone else thinking about, er, Bolting from the Leaf 2 deal?
- SF Bay Area
- 2011 Leaf traded in at 46,000 miles, 3 years, lost 1 bar
- Upgraded to 2014 Rav4EV with Quickchargepower.com CHAdeMO port, 53,000 miles
- Tesla Model 3 reserved

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6546
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:59 am

My Winter range is about 50 miles. I can still go 65 miles in mild weather, but it's getting old. Maybe the Ioniq will actually get here by Fall after all...
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

MSELeaf
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:32 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Aug 2014
Leaf Number: 339750
Location: College Park, MD

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:45 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Oh, right: the reason I came to this topic. It is now being said that Nissan won't be delivering Leaf "2"s ordered in September until March of 2018. This is definitely NOT all right with me, as I have no desire to spend another Winter driving a car with 50-55 miles of Winter range. Is anyone else thinking about, er, Bolting from the Leaf 2 deal?


Where did you hear this information from? If this is true, then I'll be in a real pickle since my 30,000 mile 2014 SV is getting dicey with winter range (80% SOH), the IONIQ will likely be difficult to get on the East Coast, and Chevy insists on less than favorable leases for the Bolt.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:46 am

evnow wrote:
Durandal wrote:An advantage of a large kWh battery pack even if you don't need it will be longer life of the battery pack due to it being charged/discharged less, and when it is discharged, to a lower depth of discharge. A 60kWh battery pack that has 75% capacity remaining still offers a lot of range of 180 miles, while 75% remaining on a 40kWh is 120 miles. Even when it gets down to 50% capacity, the 60kWh would offer 120 mile range, versus the 80 mile range of the 40kWh at 50%. That will improve resale values as the usability of the vehicle still remains, years later.


Add to that cold weather, high way speed hits. Even a 200 mile EV becomes a 150 mile EV with no degradation. 40 kWh would be < 100 miles.

All this talk of whether 40 kwh or 60 kwh is "enough" reminds me of those days when we were thinking whether 1GB RAM was enough.

Hopefully in a few years 60 kWh is cheap enough for EVs around $15k. I think good range for US is 3 hours of highway driving in winter, with 20% buffer. This way you fast charge to 80% in 30 minutes and off you go for 3 more hours. About 400 miles EPA.

All this assuming, we won't have a nuke war soon.



In reference; my 30 kwh pack is EPA rated at 107 miles. During the worst of Winter (heavy rain, 4 occupants) I was seeing an "estimated" 95 mile range (actually drove 92 of those miles before hitting the charger). In plain cold weather with "slight" heat use, I was seeing 105ish and that is driving mostly 65 mph (per odometer) In "spring like" weather, temps in mid 40's and sunny, I am seeing 110+ again with minimal regard to speeds. During Summer, I am expecting 125 miles with "careless" driving, 140 miles if trying to stretch it. FYI; the day I got the car, my estimated range was 131 miles but it was a clear Sunny day in the mid 70's with traffic issues... BUT, I left Magic at 89% SOC
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 18,297 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 100.00% kwh 28.1 QCs 165, L2's 190
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:01 am

MSELeaf wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
Oh, right: the reason I came to this topic. It is now being said that Nissan won't be delivering Leaf "2"s ordered in September until March of 2018. This is definitely NOT all right with me, as I have no desire to spend another Winter driving a car with 50-55 miles of Winter range. Is anyone else thinking about, er, Bolting from the Leaf 2 deal?


Where did you hear this information from? If this is true, then I'll be in a real pickle since my 30,000 mile 2014 SV is getting dicey with winter range (80% SOH), the IONIQ will likely be difficult to get on the East Coast, and Chevy insists on less than favorable leases for the Bolt.


Ioniq is supposedly available by order to ALL 50 states... Considering the random issues with battery degradation that may or may not be tied to time on dealer lots, I kinda wishing Nissan was doing the same thing. I order it, they build it, I pick it up 2 weeks later...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 18,297 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 100.00% kwh 28.1 QCs 165, L2's 190
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MSELeaf
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:32 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Aug 2014
Leaf Number: 339750
Location: College Park, MD

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:10 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
MSELeaf wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
Oh, right: the reason I came to this topic. It is now being said that Nissan won't be delivering Leaf "2"s ordered in September until March of 2018. This is definitely NOT all right with me, as I have no desire to spend another Winter driving a car with 50-55 miles of Winter range. Is anyone else thinking about, er, Bolting from the Leaf 2 deal?


Where did you hear this information from? If this is true, then I'll be in a real pickle since my 30,000 mile 2014 SV is getting dicey with winter range (80% SOH), the IONIQ will likely be difficult to get on the East Coast, and Chevy insists on less than favorable leases for the Bolt.


Ioniq is supposedly available by order to ALL 50 states... Considering the random issues with battery degradation that may or may not be tied to time on dealer lots, I kinda wishing Nissan was doing the same thing. I order it, they build it, I pick it up 2 weeks later...


Hopefully Hyundai makes their leases reasonable so it can be a good alternative option. I wish I knew more about the degradation tied to sitting on a dealer lot (and LEAFSpy) before I got my April 2014 manufactured SV in August 2014 since it was at 92% SOH when I got LEAFSpy in September 2014 and lost the 1st bar at 20,000 miles.

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OrientExpress
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:13 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
MSELeaf wrote: Oh, right: the reason I came to this topic. It is now being said that Nissan won't be delivering Leaf "2"s ordered in September until March of 2018. This is definitely NOT all right with me, as I have no desire to spend another Winter driving a car with 50-55 miles of Winter range. Is anyone else thinking about, er, Bolting from the Leaf 2 deal?


That is not an accurate statement. Cars will start to dribble in before the end of the year.
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Delivery May 23 2014
46,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

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