Firetruck41
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Location: SW Washington State

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat May 20, 2017 1:50 pm

If it's not a new design, it isn't 2.0. Just another version of the gen 1. I have every expectation it will be a complete redesign. That's not to say it won't have a resemblance in dimension, design, etc
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat May 20, 2017 2:36 pm

NavyCuda wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
Also, he mentions that the new Leaf is a completely new design. There is no carryover from the current generation.


Frankly, I don't believe that, and actually hope it isn't true. If I decide to order a Leaf 2 without driving one, it will have to use the existing car as the basis for the redesign. If it really is all new, I'll probably lease a Bolt - which by then should be ironed out. Someone else can beta test the all-new Leaf.


Logic fail.


If you mean "the Bolt is also brand new" then note that I'll be leasing when the Bolt has been out for about 9 months, with lots of early Bolt buyers being used as beta testers, and things like software revisions and probably seat modifications having already been implemented by GM. If you mean something else that makes sense, please enlighten us.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

NavyCuda
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat May 20, 2017 4:02 pm

When you accuse companies like Nissan and GM of beta-testing on their end-user you lose credibility with me. Even Tesla only really beta-tests their software with the end user.

While it's true new vehicles can have teething problems, vehicles at the end of their model life can be just as problematic as something new on the assembly line.

It must be pointed out that it is exceptionally rare for their to be a serious defect in the core design of a vehicle. The only one that comes to mind directly is the Pinto. Smaller parts flaws, well these things happen even with mature parts on a worn production line.

When I look at the history of GM electronics in their vehicles over the last thirty years, or that of Nissan, you'd have to come up with a much more compelling argument to make me risk buying a mature production GM over a virgin Leaf 2.

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Nubo
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat May 20, 2017 4:21 pm

NavyCuda wrote: "...It must be pointed out that it is exceptionally rare for their to be a serious defect in the core design of a vehicle. The only one that comes to mind directly is the Pinto."...


Chevrolet Vega
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

LeftieBiker
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat May 20, 2017 4:36 pm

Ford Explorer.

Cuda, if you want to believe something, that's fine. Accusing me of failing to be logical because I disagree with you is a little different. If the Leaf 2 really is a completely new car (which I doubt) then the only known component will be a battery pack with no active cooling. I will NOT risk driving an early production version of such a car.

Volvo 164 (too few camshaft bearings when they extended the design of the B20 engine to six cylinders. They pretty much all developed bad cam bearings.)

Volvo 850. The first year or two of production vehicles had sealed transmissions which precluded changing the transmission fluid completely. With predictable results.

GM V-8 passenger car diesel (first version). Used gasoline engine components (including the engine block) that failed early under the extra stress.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

cwerdna
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat May 20, 2017 4:42 pm

NavyCuda wrote:When you accuse companies like Nissan and GM of beta-testing on their end-user you lose credibility with me. Even Tesla only really beta-tests their software with the end user.

It seems like the both the front and falcon wing doors on the Model X are a beta-test on users, at best.

These contain just a tiny fraction of examples I've seen:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ter.66455/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... cle.68268/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... res.85021/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ity.88907/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... fwd.67460/ (FWD = "falcon wing door"... sigh)
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-1461204
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ing.77686/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ion.71789/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ive.62188/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ing.71137/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 39/page-16
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... rts.71339/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-1602160 - this pic's great :)

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... st-1471614 has pointers to more.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17305 has pointers to some automakers testing doors to 84,000 open/close cycles to simulate 10 years of customer use. I suspect the probability of a pass (no problems) if taking a random Model X off the line and subjecting each door 84K cycles in a variety of environmental conditions (e.g. sun out, cold, etc.) is not very high.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Firetruck41
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat May 20, 2017 11:13 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:...If the Leaf 2 really is a completely new car (which I doubt) ...

Then don't call it Leaf 2, call it Leaf 1.73? If they are calling it 2.0, it will be all new, or nearly so.
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

LeftieBiker
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat May 20, 2017 11:49 pm

They are calling it "Leaf 2" rather than "Leaf 2.0" so it isn't at all clear from the name that it's all new. If those camouflaged cars are just test mules, it makes little sense, for a couple of reasons. First, why camouflage them? It would be better to just use whole Leaf 1 cars, which are inconspicuous. After all, you don't need to test drive a new nose and tail. The only reason I can think of is if the new motor and pack won't fit into the existing nose and tail, but that doesn't seem especially likely, either - the new nose doesn't seem appreciably larger than the old, and there is plenty of empty space in the tail of Leaf 1...

Finally, since Nissan is competing on price more than on performance, building a whole new car on the cheap, when the existing car's interior is well liked, also makes little sense. Putting a new nose, tail, and dash on the existing midsection does make a lot of sense. That would let Nissan keep building essentially the same body on the same production lines, with only a few new external pieces, and a few (but important) internal parts changing. That would give them a significant cost advantage.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Firetruck41
Posts: 501
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Leaf Number: 408264
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sun May 21, 2017 2:24 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:They are calling it "Leaf 2" rather than "Leaf 2.0" so it isn't at all clear from the name that it's all new. If those camouflaged cars are just test mules, it makes little sense, for a couple of reasons. First, why camouflage them? It would be better to just use whole Leaf 1 cars, which are inconspicuous. After all, you don't need to test drive a new nose and tail. The only reason I can think of is if the new motor and pack won't fit into the existing nose and tail, but that doesn't seem especially likely, either - the new nose doesn't seem appreciably larger than the old, and there is plenty of empty space in the tail of Leaf 1...

Finally, since Nissan is competing on price more than on performance, building a whole new car on the cheap, when the existing car's interior is well liked, also makes little sense. Putting a new nose, tail, and dash on the existing midsection does make a lot of sense. That would let Nissan keep building essentially the same body on the same production lines, with only a few new external pieces, and a few (but important) internal parts changing. That would give them a significant cost advantage.

If it is Leaf 2 or 2.0, and it isn't nearly all new, it will be a huge disapointment and deceptive marketing. But you can keep dreaming that the next Leaf will be the old Leaf.
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

LeftieBiker
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Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sun May 21, 2017 5:08 pm

But you can keep dreaming that the next Leaf will be the old Leaf.


If you keep putting words in my mouth I'll just filter you. Life is short and trolls are legion. What I'm "dreaming" is that they will use the Leaf 1 passenger compartment and seats, with a much more powerful motor, a full 40kwh pack that is at least cooled when charging, and a nose with headlights that actually work well on both Low and High beams. I think that if Nissan actually builds a whole new Leaf as cheaply as they can, that it will have problems. Those problems will then be inexcusable, because there is no reason for them to build a whole new Leaf.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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