DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11591
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed May 03, 2017 6:40 pm

WetEV wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:46,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!


"46,000 miles 12 bars". Sure, I've seen this, and better.

"Same range as new". I doubt it. Even in cooler Seattle, Leafs lose range.

"No warranty issues ever!" Counting the TCU?


Its not out of the question. We have someone over 80000 miles with LS readings that say he is still over 96%. I think we need to accept the fact that environment plays a role but not all LEAFs are created equally.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11591
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed May 03, 2017 6:57 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Thing for me is, that's 150 miles new..
What will it be after 5 years in the winter with the heater going?


It won't be 150 miles with the heater running in cold weather even when new. Figure 120-130 miles in Winter.


Had a Bolter who could only get like 170ish miles in OR which gives you an idea of how much of an impact rain (not so much cold) and climate controls can be.

On another note; My LEAF would be as low as 90 miles on crappy days which means standing water and heavy rain but easily doing 115 and not counting today, we have not had a single day of decent weather. I expect 125 will not be a challenge come Summer.

What does this mean? Your new 150 mile EV could easily not make 100 miles in Winter.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveInAvl
Posts: 171
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 4:11 am
Delivery Date: 18 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 331649
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu May 04, 2017 3:51 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote: ...not all LEAFs are created equally.

That was certainly our experience with our '14 LEAF built in 1/14. After 21,000 miles in Asheville we were down to 18.4 kWh and 53.25 AHr. I sure expected better in our relatively-moderate climate...

Reddy
Posts: 1328
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:09 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Aug 2011
Leaf Number: 006828
Location: Pasco, WA

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu May 04, 2017 4:22 pm

OrientExpress wrote:what edakoakrun just said is spot on. Even after seven years the LEAF continues to be the top selling EV world-wide and owns the sub $35K market.

Expectations are high for the Gen 2 LEAF, so Nissan is just making sure they have their ducks in a row to deliver on price, value, performance, reliability and take the lessons learned from the past to provide a better owner experience.

Mark September 5th (6th in Japan) on your calendar to judge for yourself.
Done! While I think you're right on much of this, I'm still skeptical. They will need to offer quite an upgrade for me to consider trading up. My 2011 SL works just fine for in-town use, except in the winter when regen is nearly non-existent. If I could sell it for $5k (which I doubt) and purchase a new 2018 Leaf 2 for $15k net (which I also doubt), then I'd consider it. However, I'm certainly an edge case, living in a small community with an 8 mi RT commute. Maybe 2020 when the Leaf 2 starts to come off of lease.
Reddy
2011 SL; 10 bar, 48.82 AHr; 35,000 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
Long: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p226115"
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p243033"

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 883
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu May 04, 2017 4:32 pm

Yeah, you are close however. Though 'Im not sure if you would really benefit from a new car. Forms of the new car will certainly be affortable for those with modest budgets, but it is a decision that only you can make. I'll look forward to your imressions on 9/5 (in the Americas, 9/6 in Japan) and what you decide to do.
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
46,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11591
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sun May 07, 2017 7:00 am

Reddy wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:what edakoakrun just said is spot on. Even after seven years the LEAF continues to be the top selling EV world-wide and owns the sub $35K market.

Expectations are high for the Gen 2 LEAF, so Nissan is just making sure they have their ducks in a row to deliver on price, value, performance, reliability and take the lessons learned from the past to provide a better owner experience.

Mark September 5th (6th in Japan) on your calendar to judge for yourself.
Done! While I think you're right on much of this, I'm still skeptical. They will need to offer quite an upgrade for me to consider trading up. My 2011 SL works just fine for in-town use, except in the winter when regen is nearly non-existent. If I could sell it for $5k (which I doubt) and purchase a new 2018 Leaf 2 for $15k net (which I also doubt), then I'd consider it. However, I'm certainly an edge case, living in a small community with an 8 mi RT commute. Maybe 2020 when the Leaf 2 starts to come off of lease.



the effective price of my 2016 on lease is $17½K. You could lease a new one with upgraded heater, better fast charge profile and better batteries using your LEAF as a trade in, milk the lease for 3 years then negotiate a lower buyout at the end. As it is, with my zero down lease, my residual is $9.1K. With your driving needs, you would be set for a while. It would be a bit of money out of pocket but a much better car I think
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

tattoogunman
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:17 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2016
Location: Plano, Texas

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue May 09, 2017 5:38 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
Thing for me is, that's 150 miles new..
What will it be after 5 years in the winter with the heater going?


It won't be 150 miles with the heater running in cold weather even when new. Figure 120-130 miles in Winter.


Had a Bolter who could only get like 170ish miles in OR which gives you an idea of how much of an impact rain (not so much cold) and climate controls can be.

On another note; My LEAF would be as low as 90 miles on crappy days which means standing water and heavy rain but easily doing 115 and not counting today, we have not had a single day of decent weather. I expect 125 will not be a challenge come Summer.

What does this mean? Your new 150 mile EV could easily not make 100 miles in Winter.


I would be interested to know exactly how that Bolt owner was driving and using their car to only be getting 170 miles. I've been following the Bolt and numerous owners via the net (Youtube, discussion boards, etc.) and everyone seems to consistently be getting the 250+ and there are some people who have reported slightly over 300 miles with very conservative driving and heavy regen use.

GRA
Posts: 6769
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue May 09, 2017 5:59 pm

tattoogunman wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
It won't be 150 miles with the heater running in cold weather even when new. Figure 120-130 miles in Winter.


Had a Bolter who could only get like 170ish miles in OR which gives you an idea of how much of an impact rain (not so much cold) and climate controls can be.

On another note; My LEAF would be as low as 90 miles on crappy days which means standing water and heavy rain but easily doing 115 and not counting today, we have not had a single day of decent weather. I expect 125 will not be a challenge come Summer.

What does this mean? Your new 150 mile EV could easily not make 100 miles in Winter.


I would be interested to know exactly how that Bolt owner was driving and using their car to only be getting 170 miles. I've been following the Bolt and numerous owners via the net (Youtube, discussion boards, etc.) and everyone seems to consistently be getting the 250+ and there are some people who have reported slightly over 300 miles with very conservative driving and heavy regen use.

From the Bolt thread, describing the results from the Ampera-E's range calculator:

    . . . Range results are as follows:

    Temperature (HVAC OFF / ON)
    -20°C: 432 km / 242 km (268 miles/150 miles)
    -10°C: 439 km / 256 km (273 miles/159 miles)
    0°C: 473 km / 316 km (293 miles/197 miles)
    10°C: 512 km / 412 km (318 miles/256 miles)
    20°C: 527 km / 472 km (327 miles/293 miles)
    30°C: 515 km / 422 km (320 miles/252 miles)
    40°C: 502 km / 368 km (312 miles/229 miles)
    Between the highest result of 527 km (~327 miles) at 20°C and the lowest at 432 km (~269 miles) at -20°C we see some 18% range drop.

    While, the use of heating at -20°C would eat 54% of range to 242 km (~150 miles), and that’s not end as there could be also stronger wind or other factors.

    The very worst case scenario is -20°C and into the wind/aggressive driving, which decreases range to 253 km (157 miles) / 210 km (130 miles) depending on heating OFF/ ON. That’s up to around 60% less than normal.

Note the above ranges are at 'medium' speed. The calculator can be found at http://www.opel.de/fahrzeuge/ampera-e/uebersicht/partials/reichweite/reichweitensimulator.html and you can also select 'High' or 'Very High' speeds. The 'High' cycle peaks out at just under 100km/62 mph, the Very High around 130 km/81 mph, and somewhere between the two or else Very High would probably best represent U.S. freeway cruising. Medium cycle seems to peak at about 80km/55 mph, with more accel/decel, and low is stop and go at a max. of 60 km/37 mph.

Very High @ 10deg. C (50 deg. F) with the heat on gives an estimated range of 281 km/ 174.5 mi., while high gives 393 km/244 mi. under the same conditions. @ 0 deg. C (32 deg. F), w/heat, High gives 319 km/198 mi., VH = 245 km/152 miles. Add the effect of wet roads, wind, hills and reserve to taste.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

tattoogunman
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:17 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2016
Location: Plano, Texas

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue May 09, 2017 6:10 pm

GRA wrote:
tattoogunman wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Had a Bolter who could only get like 170ish miles in OR which gives you an idea of how much of an impact rain (not so much cold) and climate controls can be.

On another note; My LEAF would be as low as 90 miles on crappy days which means standing water and heavy rain but easily doing 115 and not counting today, we have not had a single day of decent weather. I expect 125 will not be a challenge come Summer.

What does this mean? Your new 150 mile EV could easily not make 100 miles in Winter.


I would be interested to know exactly how that Bolt owner was driving and using their car to only be getting 170 miles. I've been following the Bolt and numerous owners via the net (Youtube, discussion boards, etc.) and everyone seems to consistently be getting the 250+ and there are some people who have reported slightly over 300 miles with very conservative driving and heavy regen use.

From the Bolt thread, describing the results from the Ampera-E's range calculator:

    . . . Range results are as follows:

    Temperature (HVAC OFF / ON)
    -20°C: 432 km / 242 km (268 miles/150 miles)
    -10°C: 439 km / 256 km (273 miles/159 miles)
    0°C: 473 km / 316 km (293 miles/197 miles)
    10°C: 512 km / 412 km (318 miles/256 miles)
    20°C: 527 km / 472 km (327 miles/293 miles)
    30°C: 515 km / 422 km (320 miles/252 miles)
    40°C: 502 km / 368 km (312 miles/229 miles)
    Between the highest result of 527 km (~327 miles) at 20°C and the lowest at 432 km (~269 miles) at -20°C we see some 18% range drop.

    While, the use of heating at -20°C would eat 54% of range to 242 km (~150 miles), and that’s not end as there could be also stronger wind or other factors.

    The very worst case scenario is -20°C and into the wind/aggressive driving, which decreases range to 253 km (157 miles) / 210 km (130 miles) depending on heating OFF/ ON. That’s up to around 60% less than normal.

Note the above ranges are at 'medium' speed. The calculator can be found at http://www.opel.de/fahrzeuge/ampera-e/uebersicht/partials/reichweite/reichweitensimulator.html and you can also select 'High' or 'Very High' speeds. The 'High' cycle peaks out at just under 100km/62 mph, the Very High around 130 km/81 mph, and somewhere between the two or else Very High would probably best represent U.S. freeway cruising. Medium cycle seems to peak at about 80km/55 mph, with more accel/decel, and low is stop and go at a max. of 60 km/37 mph.

Very High @ 10deg. C (50 deg. F) with the heat on gives an estimated range of 281 km/ 174.5 mi., while high gives 393 km/244 mi. under the same conditions. @ 0 deg. C (32 deg. F), w/heat, High gives 319 km/198 mi., VH = 245 km/152 miles. Add the effect of wet roads, wind, hills and reserve to taste.


Interesting - I guess the solution would be just using the heated seat function instead ;) I think most of the people that I have been following have been avoiding using their climate control, so that would sort of make sense. I know a few people showed videos where there GOM ("guess o meter") showed their range as 250 miles and by just turning on the heat or AC, it would instantly drop to 230 or so. When they switched it off, it hopped back up to the 250. Most of them are also using the regen functions heavily and seem to be having good results. Still interesting.....

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6156
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue May 09, 2017 9:24 pm

The Bolt uses a resistance-only heater, so when it has to provide a lot of heat in real cold it draws about 7kw - less of course in less extreme situations.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

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