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DNAinaGoodWay
Posts: 2751
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:43 am
Delivery Date: 03 Dec 2012
Leaf Number: 23156
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:29 am

What it'll come down to for me will be how it compares to the Bolt I'd get otherwise, a blue LT with comfort package and QC, MSRP $38,800.

Have to wait until September to find out the details, but basically a 60 kWh Leaf with QC and heated seats.

Disadvantage to Leaf will be having to wait who knows how long before it can be delivered, sticking me with a 24 kWh car past warranty, (but with 3 free months) and likely to having to pay full MSRP since they probably won't be dealing right off. OTOH, there is the $1000 loyalty and waived return lease fee and $500 wear allowance.

To be compared to whatever lease deals are available on the Bolt by then, plus maybe conquest cash, less the cost of returning the Leaf.
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

'17 Bolt LT



6.72 kW Array

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1684
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:35 am

ydnas7 wrote:Nissan's incremental cost per kWh will be substantially less than GM's $145 deal from LG. so lets pick a number say $120/kWh
pack stays the same, no cell cooling costs, so a 40kWh version saves Nissan 60-40=20kWh x $120 or about $2400.


This claim strikes me as out of the blue and unsubstantiated. What is your evidence that Nissan's cell cost is lower than GM's?
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

cliff
Posts: 105
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 10:36 am
Delivery Date: 15 Sep 2012
Leaf Number: 022673
Location: Federal Way, WA

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:55 pm

There was an article in our local paper that I think came from the Associated Press,
saying that GM was losing $7k-9k per bolt sold. I would think Nissan would get no
advantage for this kind of subsidy. Is GM having the whole battery pack built by LG?
Maybe Nissan gets some relief by building there own battery, even if not the electrodes,
or maybe they license the electrode(and separator) from LG Chem. Or maybe they
are not using LG Chem for gen 2.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1684
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:02 pm

cliff wrote:There was an article in our local paper that I think came from the Associated Press,
saying that GM was losing $7k-9k per bolt sold. I would think Nissan would get no
advantage for this kind of subsidy. Is GM having the whole battery pack built by LG?
Maybe Nissan gets some relief by building there own battery, even if not the electrodes,
or maybe they license the electrode(and separator) from LG Chem. Or maybe they
are not using LG Chem for gen 2.


The $9k loss per Bolt is an extremely sketchy number. It is from an anonymous source. It doesn't mention what quantity of Bolts leads to this loss. So does it include all the R&D spend, spread out over 30k Bolts per year for 5 years? Is it the incremental cost of building a single Bolt? Somewhere in between? Who knows!

I put no weight on that number.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

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jhm614
Forum Supporter
Posts: 909
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:48 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000493
Location: Arlington, TX

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:19 pm

cliff wrote:There was an article in our local paper that I think came from the Associated Press,
saying that GM was losing $7k-9k per bolt sold. I would think Nissan would get no
advantage for this kind of subsidy. Is GM having the whole battery pack built by LG?
Maybe Nissan gets some relief by building there own battery, even if not the electrodes,
or maybe they license the electrode(and separator) from LG Chem. Or maybe they
are not using LG Chem for gen 2.

I agree that 9k per loss per Bolt seems completely unsubstantiated. And Chevy is already pushing for a nationwide rollout, so that seems counter to losing 9k per sale. Now, if they drop back to selling just a couple hundred Bolts per month... maybe that a different story.

Re: the LG batteries, per Takao Asami, a Nissan senior vice president of research and advanced engineering, the Leaf 2.0 will continue to use air cooled batteries. If that is accurate, there is no need to buy a battery from an outside vendor.
2011 Brilliant Silver SL - 110,000 gasoline free miles so far.
4BL: 06/29/13 @ 27 months, 43,520 miles, 42.56 Ahr. New 12 bar battery: 09/09/13
4BLx2:12/31/16 @ 69 months, 99,475 miles, 42.99 Ahr.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 7333
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:19 pm

Hopefully, hopefully, Nissan will at least have the car designed to be able to use the cabin A/C to cool the pack slightly. That would be important.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

kmp647
Posts: 1135
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:00 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Nov 2011
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:35 pm

Yeah they added the a/c cooling system into the e-nv200 pack and it was supposed to cool during dcfc
Not sure if that system activates any other time. Cooling during dcfc would certainly allow a long range leaf 150 / 220 miles to dcfc repeatedly during a road trip without overheating the cells.
Seems like at least this type of TMS is a must for reliable long range travel.
Current leaf models hit the temp limits or close to themon the pack during these types of trips even in moderate weather.
Heck even my BMW plug in hybrid x5 fires up the ac system and fans during warmer days and it only charges at 3.6kw. Now maybe it's cooling the OBC and maybe the pack, my bet is both and that the cooling circuit goes thru both.
2012 SL Leaf
order 07/28/2011
took delivery 11/11/11
47,000 miles 10 bars 211 gids
Turned back into Nissan 12/31/14 @ 50,000 miles
BMW i3 rex 24 month lease
2017 BMW X540e phev
Tesla model 3 reservation

User avatar
DNAinaGoodWay
Posts: 2751
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:43 am
Delivery Date: 03 Dec 2012
Leaf Number: 23156
Location: Central Massachusetts

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:22 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Why the long delay? Did they screw something up and maybe still haven't solved it? Last minute changes to compete? Damn frustrating.


well what is your opinion of long? The 2018 had been slated for release anywhere from late Q2 to mid Q3 so in reality, only a few months.


Well, it is what it is, but what it is isn't great. Since they started with the Leaf in 2010 I figured they'd be first to market with an affordable 60 kWh car, but no. So now they've given Chevy almost a year lead time, when they might've rolled out last year and kept a lot more current leasees. Those few months might end up being a pretty big deal for them. The 2018 will have to be very compelling.

Maybe if it's completely submersible up to 500 ft for a few miles, or is capable of short flights, say up to 10 miles?
'12 SL last reading @ 2 yr, 22k, 260 GIDs, 62.35 Ahr

'15 SV w/QC, Mfd 5/14, Leased 8/14, 292 GIDs, 64.38 Ahr when new
@ 36 months, 34k, 270 GID, 57.49 Ahr

'17 Bolt LT



6.72 kW Array

webeleafowners
Posts: 379
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:37 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Oct 2015
Location: Okanagan Valley British Columbia

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:19 am

DNAinaGoodWay wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
DNAinaGoodWay wrote:Why the long delay? Did they screw something up and maybe still haven't solved it? Last minute changes to compete? Damn frustrating.


well what is your opinion of long? The 2018 had been slated for release anywhere from late Q2 to mid Q3 so in reality, only a few months.


Well, it is what it is, but what it is isn't great. Since they started with the Leaf in 2010 I figured they'd be first to market with an affordable 60 kWh car, but no. So now they've given Chevy almost a year lead time, when they might've rolled out last year and kept a lot more current leasees. Those few months might end up being a pretty big deal for them. The 2018 will have to be very compelling.

Maybe if it's completely submersible up to 500 ft for a few miles, or is capable of short flights, say up to 10 miles?


I don't know. We drove the Bolt and didn't like it as much as the current leaf so we bought a left over 2016 SV. But honestly what was also in the back of my mind was our previous three experiences in the last 15 years with Chevy's. One truck and two cars. They were Junk within a year of rolling off the lot. Keeping them past warranty was not an option as they would have nickel and dimed us to death. I don't get that impression with our leaf. I honestly don't think I could ever buy another Chevy and I know a few others who feel the same. I think the new Leaf will be head and shoulders above the Bolt because, at least for us, our 2016 already is. If all someone wants (or needs) is lots of range then pile on to the Chevy but I don't think its a good idea to confuse range with quality or driving experience. To each his own. Everybody has their own tastes.
2015 Smart Electric Drive convertible.
2016 Nissan Leaf SV 30KWh
EV only Family...well except for the big diesel motorhome. :shock:

2011RedLeaf
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:49 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 3999

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:28 am

I really don't understand their logic on a short time between displaying the car & having it available. My 2011 is going to meet my needs through the summer. Six days a week I drive about 40 miles. Every Saturday I go 200 miles through the mountains & use my wife's Volt. By winter, it won't meet the 40-mile need. I plan to replace the battery or buy a new car.
If I decide to buy a new car and demand for the Bolt makes a great deal available in Aug, it won't matter how wonderful the Sept reveal is, it's too late. If I know there is a good chance the 2.0 is something more than a new shade of black with blue metal-flake, I can push things a couple more months using a DCFC on the way home. With nothing to look forward to, I'm going to be very susceptible to the charms of my Chevy dealer (350#, missing teeth, smells like stale cigar smoke, and belches a lot, but is known to have a car that will very likely meet my needs 7 days a week if I trickle charge at the destination).

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