edatoakrun
Posts: 4329
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:18 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:...shorter (height) and longer (length) would result in the same interior volume with much better aero.

And to me the camo images of the Gen 2, seem to show just that.

You can quantify the benefits in higher efficiency and larger interior volume in the Ioniq, a BEV ~ four inches lower than a LEAF, ~six inches lower than a Bolt (and ~two inches wider than either) in the comparison here:

http://plugincars.com/hyundai-ioniq
no condition is permanent

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:23 am

edatoakrun wrote:And to me the camo images of the Gen 2, seem to show just that.


I hope you are right. I am unable to tell by looking at photos of a camo'd car. We have heard implications from Nissan that the Gen 2 will be more efficient overall. Aero is likely a larger source of loss than powertrain losses. And easier to improve to boot.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6434
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:32 am

I see little reason to suppose lower height. I think the nose and tail have been reshaped to improve the CD, and it probably won't offer 16" wheels, except maybe on the S.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1488
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:41 am

The tail is more important than the nose, and from what I can tell it is probably improved in the Gen 2. That much I can see in the camo images. It's probably more than just a style change.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

edatoakrun
Posts: 4329
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:58 am

The story below reports several models of entry-level BEVS from R/N/M will be on the market within a year or so in China.

No chance we'll be getting The E-Kwid in the USA, but once we know what battery pack (or pack options) are available in the LEAF Gen two,
we may begin speculating on Nissan's new USA BEV model placed below the LEAF in price.

Nissan prepping entry-priced electric vehicle for China
Made locally on shared platform, car will be half the price of the Leaf


Nissan Motor is developing a low-priced electric vehicle for China that could be zipping around cities like Beijing and Shanghai as early as fiscal 2018...

By using a common platform and outsourcing production to a local carmaker, Nissan aims to keep the price down to around 1.5 million yen ($13,200), which is half the cost of the all-electric Nissan Leaf hatchback.

Nissan is preparing a full model change for the Leaf that will give its flagship electronic vehicle enough range to drive between cities in China on a full charge. That will position the Leaf as a high-end EV competitor to gasoline-engine cars, but it will open a niche for a lower-priced EV designed for urban drivers making short trips, Saikawa explained.

To keep development costs down, the new car will be made on a platform shared with Nissan's alliance members Renault and Mitsubishi Motors. French automaker Renault intends to use the same platform to build an electric version of its Kwid crossover for China in 2019. To curb production costs, the vehicle will be made in China by an affiliate of Dongfeng Motor Group, Nissan's partner in a carmaking joint venture...

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Consume ... d=NARAN012
edatoakrun wrote:(page 102)

...The LEAF 1 was an outstanding initial effort, as evidenced by how well the ~300k gen 1 LEAFs are still performing, and its continuing high worldwide sales rate to date.

It's unexpectedly long production life has given Nissan the luxury of time to make major improvements, and I expect LEAF 2 will probably be a significant advance from our BEVs.

Just how much more efficient, lighter, and less expensive than the LEAF 1, and how many new features it will have, will be announced in the next few months.

I'm impatiently driving my 2011 (over 6 years and over 52k miles on the O.E. battery pack, and covered 95.7 single-charge miles the day before yesterday, from "100%" to the VLBW.) and waiting for the LEAF 2 news before I decide what my next BEV will be.

Very interesting story below on how Nissan/Renault's culture of delegating authority, working cooperatively with partners and suppliers,
and benefiting from long experience in building cars (The Anti-Tesla approach) has revolutionized the entry-level ICEV.

We might be reading a similar story about the development of the gen 2 (or maybe the gen 3) LEAF/Zoe in the future...


True Disruptors Of The Auto Industry: 118-Year-Old Renault, A 71-Year-Old Man And A $4,100 Car

There has been a lot of talk about disrupting the auto industry. If you want to see disruption in full-scale beauty, you must go to Chennai, India. The city formerly known as Madras has become a veritable hotbed of automotive disruption, and not just because the mercury constantly flirts with the 100 degree mark. Some 30 dusty, and very nerve-rattling miles south of the airport is the Oragadam Industrial Corridor, and right in the middle of it is Renault and Nissan’s joint production site, which is trying to crank out the $4,100 Renault Kwid as quickly as it is snapped up, usually by first-time buyers, who finally can afford a real car.

Some 40 years ago, we finally could afford a real computer, 64K and all -- now a real car can be bought at a similar price.

For those who think the outrageous price is not low enough, the factory has just started to produce a $3,700 derivative, the Datsun Redi-GO. Both are real cars, on a brand-new platform, and they already disrupted the marketing plans of Maruti-Suzuki, which until now has dominated the rapidly growing Indian car market, but probably not for a lot longer. (The secret of how Renault-Nissan has achieved the cars’ ultra-low price is revealed here. But does Renault-Nissan make money with the cars? The answer is here.)...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschm ... 1e8b1d69b0
no condition is permanent

lorenfb
Posts: 1147
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:29 am

GetOffYourGas wrote: We have heard implications from Nissan that the Gen 2 will be more efficient overall. Aero is likely a larger source of loss than powertrain losses. And easier to improve to boot.


Totally! The powertrain losses are minimal (less than 3-5%) and result from;
1. The motor controller's power switching semiconductors,
2. The motor windings' resistances, and
3. The reduction gearbox (~ 8:1) & wheel bearings.

Note: The powertrain losses as described above are exclusive of the rolling resistance losses (weight & tires).

As implied, the key is the reduction of the coefficient of drag.

NeilBlanchard
Posts: 565
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:02 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Oct 2014
Leaf Number: 306278

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:36 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:The tail is more important than the nose, and from what I can tell it is probably improved in the Gen 2. That much I can see in the camo images. It's probably more than just a style change.


I agree, Brian - the back looks better than the current Leaf, on the roof line in particular, and to a lesser extent on the sides. If the underside rises up more than the current car, then that would also help. The changes at the front could possibly help with the flow around the front wheels. Oh, and the wheels and the wheel opening look to be improved for lower drag, as well.

I think that they will improve the drivetrain, too. The current Leaf compared to the Bolt EV shows (largely) the difference in their drivetrains. The Bolt EV Cd is (apparently) 0.308 vs the approximate 0.32 (actual) of the Leaf, is a small part of it. Leaf is 124MPGe City vs the Bolt EV at 128MPGe.

lorenfb
Posts: 1147
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
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Location: SoCal

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:01 pm

NeilBlanchard wrote:I think that they will improve the drivetrain, too.


And how? Your insight will be appreciated.

Remember, both the Bolt and the present Leaf use a PM (permanent magnet) motor design verses Tesla
with an induction motor design (true AC motor design) which is less efficient but more torque.

Image

Not much there to enhance drivetrain efficiency!

NeilBlanchard
Posts: 565
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:02 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Oct 2014
Leaf Number: 306278

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:00 am

Better BMS, and inverter could be part of it. And there are way to improve the motor efficiency, too, with better "shape" to the magnetic fields.

Look for the heat - and design things to reduce it. Cool is efficiency, and efficiency is cool.

NavyCuda
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:14 pm
Delivery Date: 24 Jun 2015
Leaf Number: 329051

Re: LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:21 am

I don't think there is much more room for efficiency gains in the motor itself. Electric motors have been around for over a century and the behavior of electricity is much more predictable than a combustion event.

On the Battery management and inverter side I don't think we'll see much more either.

I am surprised however that Nissan didn't use a planetary gearset for the gear reduction, as planetary gearsets have the least parasitic losses.

Though if they really wanted to chase efficiency they'd go back to drum brakes...

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