DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:54 am

evnow wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:60 kwh in a package roughly 30-40% larger than the original is pretty impressive (guessing by pix on size differences. could be 50-60% larger)

No - it is almost the same size as the current battery.

but IDS is a SUV/CUV right? not so much LEAF II. with a 60 kwh option, an SUV/mini van is a no brainer I would think. the product shown looks more like what infiniti would be putting out more than Nissan but either way, when the tide rises...

No - it is just a hatch. Are you confusing this with Gripz ?


so guessing you did not see the pictures of the two packs? but it is a picture so you could be "close" however the larger pack is undoubtedly so

as far as SUV, just a guess. its a prototype so could go anywhere at this point but looking at the pictures I see either a car with very short windows or a vehicle that is taller than a normal car making the windows "normal sized. I am guessing its the latter making this car bigger than a LEAF. from the description where it states that seats will turn slightly inwards when in auto mode tells me the interior has to be bigger since my LEAF has no where near enough room
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 1857 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 101.15% kwh 28.1
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DeeAgeaux
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:06 am

edatoakrun wrote: but I think Infiniti would be nuts to not proceed with the LE, now that it has access to a 60 kWh pack and drivetrain off-the shelf.


The problem is price and specifications versus a fully loaded Gen II LEAF on the one hand and a base Tesla Model S on the other hand.

Price it too close to a top spec LEAF and you will just cannibalize LEAF sales without added profit to Nissan Motor Company's bottom line.

Price it too close to a base 2018 Model S Infiniti likely suffers the same fate as Cadillac. Infiniti's halo EV gets ELR'd with huge discounts and old stock on dealer lots.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Sun Nov 01, 2015 8:28 am

DeeAgeaux wrote:
edatoakrun wrote: but I think Infiniti would be nuts to not proceed with the LE, now that it has access to a 60 kWh pack and drivetrain off-the shelf.


The problem is price and specifications versus a fully loaded Gen II LEAF on the one hand and a base Tesla Model S on the other hand.

Price it too close to a top spec LEAF and you will just cannibalize LEAF sales without added profit to Nissan Motor Company's bottom line.

Price it too close to a base 2018 Model S Infiniti likely suffers the same fate as Cadillac. Infiniti's halo EV gets ELR'd with huge discounts and old stock on dealer lots.


an infiniti would be priced in the mid 40's, LEAF in the mid 30's. nothing else makes sense. its becoming obvious that the issue is not the level of the technology, its the economy of providing it. That is what Nissan is waiting for...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 1857 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 101.15% kwh 28.1
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jhm614
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:47 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:an Infiniti would be priced in the mid 40's, LEAF in the mid 30's. nothing else makes sense. it's becoming obvious that the issue is not the level of the technology, its the economy of providing it. That is what Nissan is waiting for...

The question is can they hit that price point in calendar year 2017 or 2018. If we see the Leaf 2.0 slip to 2018, it will be because they can't hit the number on the 60 kWh battery pack to sell it profitably. It seems amazing that it's possible we'll see two or more affordable cars with this size of pack within a couple years!

Also, the IDS styling is already growing on me. I'm sold on everything accept the 'air intakes' in front of the wheels.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:41 pm

If you look at the identical pack frame, mounting points, and external wiring connections shown in the photo at the link below, it seems very likely that Nissan wanted some compatibility between the gen one and gen two packs.

While forward compatibility would be desirable for those of us with gen one LEAFs, allowing our LEAFs to use the newer design(s), it is also possible, IMO, that Nissan is concerned with backward compatibility, allowing the gen one pack to continue be used in gen two LEAFs.

Nissan might find it desirable to continue gen one pack production (presumably offering it in lower trim levels of the gen two) for cost or other benefits.

Since the gen one design has already been upgraded to ~30 kWh for the 2016 MY, we should not assume it could not have an even higher kWh rating in a few more years, by the time the gen two is introduced.

Even if the gen two pack in those photos is too large for gen one pack bays (as some have suggested) preventing forward compatibility, that should not prevent backward compatibility , using the gen one pack in the gen two.

edatoakrun wrote:If this photo shows what I think it does, a 60 kWh pack in the foreground, and a 24 (or 30) kWh pack in the background:

http://dailykan-13be.kxcdn.com/wp-conte ... ery_02.jpg

And if that is the actual configuration planned for the gen 2, not just a one-off for use in gen 1 LEAF test mules.

Then:

The 60 kWh pack appears likely to continue to use conductive (passive) thermal management, only consistent with long battery life if battery heating when charging at ~100 kW is limited by higher efficiency.

The two battery pack configurations looking very similar suggests much of the Gen 1 chassis design may be retained, whatever the designers decide to do with the Gen 2 appearance.

Not reported is whether a pack smaller than 60 kWh will be offered. I certainly hope Nissan offers a less-expensive and lighter 30 to 50 kWh pack option to those who buyers who don't want the 60 kWh range...


On the other hand, if Nissan wants to use the new cell design in lower kWh packs, as mentioned previously:

RegGuheert wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Couldn't another configuration of the new cells allow a lower kWh (and dimensionally smaller-if required) replacement pack for 2011-15 LEAFs, If Nissan wants to produce one?
Yes, but only if you can keep the system voltage the same, which means 96 cells in series. So, yes, 40 kWh works out if the 60-kWh version really has cells in triplets. (Nissan does NOT have the granularity available to Tesla, which uses the 18650-sized cells.)

That would make a good pair of options: 40 kWh base and 60 kWh extended.

Expanding on the if theme, a lightweight 40 kWh pack could IMO also be a good fit for a smaller sports/GT BEV, which could benefit from lower aero resistance and lighter weight for longer range than possible when powering the five-door, five-seat LEAF gen two.

And a forty (or less) kWh pack using the new cells/modules might leave enough room in the gen two LEAF's pack bay for a range extender, if Nissan ever wanted to give us a BEVx option.

The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847
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Darrenf
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:15 pm

edatoakrun wrote:If you look at the identical pack frame, mounting points, and external wiring connections shown in the photo at the link below, it seems very likely that Nissan wanted some compatibility between the gen one and gen two packs.

While forward compatibility would be desirable for those of us with gen one LEAFs, allowing our LEAFs to use the newer design(s), it is also possible, IMO, that Nissan is concerned with backward compatibility, allowing the gen one pack to continue be used in gen two LEAFs.

Nissan might find it desirable to continue gen one pack production (presumably offering it in lower trim levels of the gen two) for cost or other benefits.

Since the gen one design has already been upgraded to ~30 kWh for the 2016 MY, we should not assume it could not have an even higher kWh rating in a few more years, by the time the gen two is introduced.

Even if the gen two pack in those photos is too large for gen one pack bays (as some have suggested) preventing forward compatibility, that should not prevent backward compatibility , using the gen one pack in the gen two.

edatoakrun wrote:If this photo shows what I think it does, a 60 kWh pack in the foreground, and a 24 (or 30) kWh pack in the background:

http://dailykan-13be.kxcdn.com/wp-conte ... ery_02.jpg

And if that is the actual configuration planned for the gen 2, not just a one-off for use in gen 1 LEAF test mules.

Then:

The 60 kWh pack appears likely to continue to use conductive (passive) thermal management, only consistent with long battery life if battery heating when charging at ~100 kW is limited by higher efficiency.

The two battery pack configurations looking very similar suggests much of the Gen 1 chassis design may be retained, whatever the designers decide to do with the Gen 2 appearance.

Not reported is whether a pack smaller than 60 kWh will be offered. I certainly hope Nissan offers a less-expensive and lighter 30 to 50 kWh pack option to those who buyers who don't want the 60 kWh range...


On the other hand, if Nissan wants to use the new cell design in lower kWh packs, as mentioned previously:

RegGuheert wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Couldn't another configuration of the new cells allow a lower kWh (and dimensionally smaller-if required) replacement pack for 2011-15 LEAFs, If Nissan wants to produce one?
Yes, but only if you can keep the system voltage the same, which means 96 cells in series. So, yes, 40 kWh works out if the 60-kWh version really has cells in triplets. (Nissan does NOT have the granularity available to Tesla, which uses the 18650-sized cells.)

That would make a good pair of options: 40 kWh base and 60 kWh extended.

Expanding on the if theme, a lightweight 40 kWh pack could IMO also be a good fit for a smaller sports/GT BEV, which could benefit from lower aero resistance and lighter weight for longer range than possible when powering the five-door, five-seat LEAF gen two.

And a forty (or less) kWh pack using the new cells/modules might leave enough room in the gen two LEAF's pack bay for a range extender, if Nissan ever wanted to give us a BEVx option.

The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6847



Just a minor niggle. You have the terms backward compatibility and forward compatibility reversed. Backward compatible is when a newer item can be used in an older product. I.e., if the new battery pack can be used in older Leafs it is backward compatabile.

Sorry, sometimes I just can't control my inner pedant.
:)

edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:20 pm

Darrenf wrote:.... You have the terms backward compatibility and forward compatibility reversed. Backward compatible is when a newer item can be used in an older product. I.e., if the new battery pack can be used in older Leafs it is backward compatabile...

I actually wrote my comment using that terminology at first, but edited it, reversing the terms, after I noticed I'd phrased the question of compatibility from the standpoint of the BEVs, rather than the packs.

...Forward compatibility is a design characteristic that allows a system to gracefully accept input intended for a later version of itself...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward_compatibility

At least by that definition, isn't the gen one LEAF forward compatible, only if it can use the new pack?

And isn't the gen two LEAF, backward compatible, if it was designed to be able to use the old pack?

Anyway, sounds like you got my (speculative) point, even if I made semantic errors.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:53 am

Another story from the Atsugi tour worth reading.

IMO, welcome additional news (not reported in the DK story from last week) is in these three points:

A true second-generation pack

This past week, at the Nissan Technical Center at Atsugi, Japan, we were about to learn more about this pack from some of the team overseeing its development. Here are some key points of this next-gen, 200-mile battery:..

Flexible pack structure. The current Leaf battery uses four cells per module (with 48 modules in the entire 24-kWh pack)—a structure that allows a uniform height and shape for the pack. But this one moves to a multiple-cell configuration; Nissan will be able to adjust the number of cell stacks (and thus height) depending on packaging and capacity demands...

Air cooling. Nissan made the original Leaf battery pack completely air-cooled, and while there were some early, isolated issues in very hot climates like Arizona, those seem to be largely solved today. Liquid cooling isn’t being considered for an entirely new, larger-capacity battery—at least in this prototype form. Forced-air cooling isn’t likely either.

Longer service life. Nissan has revised the electrode material and optimized the lithium electrolyte (it won’t say how in either case), with the net effect being less of a performance drop over years and hundreds of charge cycles. Suppressed lithium corrosion will help durability, too. One of several charts we saw but were instructed not to publish, if to scale, suggested that instead of a standard capacity degradation to 80 percent after five years, it now might be 90 percent.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/110 ... now-so-far
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evnow
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Thu Nov 05, 2015 3:02 pm

This report makes it seem like Nissan developed the battery - not LG. I wonder if there was some collaboration ...
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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Thu Nov 05, 2015 4:41 pm

edatoakrun wrote:...
Even if the gen two pack in those photos is too large for gen one pack bays (as some have suggested) preventing forward compatibility, that should not prevent backward compatibility , using the gen one pack in the gen two....


The two packs look like they will have different top profiles, so even a gen 1 pack won't fit in a gen 2 floor plan, even if they share the same lower cover.

Close, yes. but not that close.

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