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Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:54 am
by DeeAgeaux
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
DeeAgeaux wrote:
edatoakrun wrote: but I think Infiniti would be nuts to not proceed with the LE, now that it has access to a 60 kWh pack and drivetrain off-the shelf.


The problem is price and specifications versus a fully loaded Gen II LEAF on the one hand and a base Tesla Model S on the other hand.

Price it too close to a top spec LEAF and you will just cannibalize LEAF sales without added profit to Nissan Motor Company's bottom line.

Price it too close to a base 2018 Model S Infiniti likely suffers the same fate as Cadillac. Infiniti's halo EV gets ELR'd with huge discounts and old stock on dealer lots.


an infiniti would be priced in the mid 40's, LEAF in the mid 30's. nothing else makes sense. its becoming obvious that the issue is not the level of the technology, its the economy of providing it. That is what Nissan is waiting for...


So you feel confident an Infiniti in the mid 40's without a dedicated nationwide fast charging network will do well in the market when there is a Tesla Model 3 with a base price in the $35k-$38k price range and a Tesla Model S with a base price of $70k both with a dedicated nationwide fast charging network?

Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:22 pm
by ydnas7
DeeAgeaux wrote:So you feel confident an Infiniti in the mid 40's without a dedicated nationwide fast charging network will do well in the market when there is a Tesla Model 3 with a base price in the $35k-$38k price range and a Tesla Model S with a base price of $70k both with a dedicated nationwide fast charging network?


I feel a lot more confident that Nissan/Infiniti would deliver an EV in the mid 40's than Tesla model S will be delivered with both $7,500 rebate and $35k price tag. - I'm not confident that Infiniti will sell the EV.

Think about it, Before deliveries started - Tesla model S was always promoted as a sub $50k car, and Tesla delivered on that promise. The 40kWh Tesla with $7,500 rebate do exist, just they stopped being available for sale before delivery started.

Tesla markets vehicles like a professional silicon valley company, first deliveries are of the premium product, so to recoup the massive up front r&d costs firsts. Just like Intel etc...

I think that roughly the existing 100k model S buyers will instinctively put a deposit down on a model 3, just to hold a place for a family member etc. some won't, but others will place 4 deposits down, etc. Those will tend to creep up in price in delivery priority.

So yes, a perhaps 1-2 year wait to get a $35k base price price Tesla and miss out on the federal rebate or pay $40k to get a longer range Infiniti thats eligible for the federal rebate and is able to be delivered. Thats the choice, (or perhaps a used Tesla S)

Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:38 am
by DaveinOlyWA
DeeAgeaux wrote:
So you feel confident an Infiniti in the mid 40's without a dedicated nationwide fast charging network will do well in the market when there is a Tesla Model 3 with a base price in the $35k-$38k price range and a Tesla Model S with a base price of $70k both with a dedicated nationwide fast charging network?


My statement is based on the fact that the infiniti and the Tesla 3 are likely to be priced the same which means the LEAF will undoubtedly have other competition on the same price level but Tesla will not be one of them.

Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 3:51 pm
by evnow
DeeAgeaux wrote:So you feel confident an Infiniti in the mid 40's without a dedicated nationwide fast charging network will do well in the market when there is a Tesla Model 3 with a base price in the $35k-$38k price range and a Tesla Model S with a base price of $70k both with a dedicated nationwide fast charging network?


Depends on your definition of "do well". It may not sell 500k a year (like Musk says 3 will) - but then, few Infiniti models do today.

One thing to understand is not everyone will be looking to use even next gen EVs for long distance travel. It is still a pain compared to an ICE - which most families will continue to have. Long distance EVs from Nissan, Infiniti, GM or BMW become replacements for current Leafs and other EVs performing essentially local travel duties - but much better without range anxiety than what Leaf does now.

BTW, I expect Infiniti EV to be price competitive with Model 3, esp. when compared with trims with same features.

Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:20 pm
by ydnas7
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
DeeAgeaux wrote:
So you feel confident an Infiniti in the mid 40's without a dedicated nationwide fast charging network will do well in the market when there is a Tesla Model 3 with a base price in the $35k-$38k price range and a Tesla Model S with a base price of $70k both with a dedicated nationwide fast charging network?


My statement is based on the fact that the infiniti and the Tesla 3 are likely to be priced the same which means the LEAF will undoubtedly have other competition on the same price level but Tesla will not be one of them.


I'm more considering availability,
LEAF as the cheaper option
Infiniti as the $35-$45 option that can be delivered in time to get the tax rebate
Tesla 3 as the $35-$45 trim which generally won't be delivered in time to get the tax rebate
Tesla 3 as the $45-$70 trim that might be delivered in time to get the tax rebate

and as $7500 is 20% of 37k, thats significant enough to make a level of different buyers, (of course there will be overlap)

the only way for the $35k-$45k trim to be delivered early is for the $45k-$70k trim level Tesla 3 to be a woeful car whose value proposition is akin to Cadillac ELR.

Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 4:48 pm
by finman100
I'll go ahead and put my 2 cents out there...Even with 60 kWh from a known mfg...even with all that usable energy in the 'tank'...it's one drive and yer done. What I'm saying, most all other things being equal, I'm going for the nationwide charging network at Insane charging speeds which I'm comparing relative to my current Leaf and infrastructure (OR and WA has lots of charging stations, just need more stalls per location!)

So, really, Infiniti (or Nissan, really) just needs to pony up and get on the Supercharger bandwagon or I'm moving on after my Leaf lease is up. And i by no means even have the means to buy a Tesla, but I do see the value in that charging network. It's HUGE for so many good reasons.

200 plus miles is great! But where out there on the road are you going to charge to go another 200 miles? the Chademo network is good and adequate, but I am looking for COMPLETE and TOTAL EV solution. We have a PiP in our household for those longer trips right now BECAUSE it can be fueled across the country. My next EV will also have that.

Supercharger network is the key here over anything that 'only' has a big battery.

Range is great when u can get back home with energy to spare. I doubt gas cars in their beginnings would venture where they couldn't fuel. just saying.

Yes, charging at home is awesome. Charging on road trips will also have to be awesome.

Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 7:55 pm
by evnow
Finman, I understand what you are saying. I'm just saying not everyone is like you.

Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:34 pm
by Firetruck41
evnow wrote:Finman, I understand what you are saying. I'm just saying not everyone is like you.

Yup. I would be very happy with 60kwh, would keep the truck for hauling and long family vacation type trips, other two cars would be electric. I don't care so much about a recharging infrastructure, though it would be nice. I certainly would not pay the premium I expect to see between Leaf and Model 3, for that availability, as my current use model is about 95+% charging at home, and will probably increase, with greater range "in the tank" of the next gen models. But to be honest, I will only be buying on the used market, so there might be some compression in pricing between a 3 year old Leaf and 3 year old Model 3, by then.

Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:42 am
by DaveinOlyWA
Lets be honest here. Tesla's SC network is already sagging under the weight of user abuse so what do you think will happen when 100,000 III's are added to the mix.

the days of unlimited free will be exactly that. numbered in days...

Re: Nissan IDS concept shows Next Gen Leaf with 60kwh

Posted: Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:46 am
by TimLee
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Lets be honest here. Tesla's SC network is already sagging under the weight of user abuse ...

:?:
I do not follow Tesla that closely yet.
Could you provide some examples or links to documentation of abuse :?: