Evoforce
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Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:44 pm

Well I opened this Pandora's box in a different thread (Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up) that should be responded to here...

I haven't even tried to crunch numbers on what the (best guess) expectations would be for a 60kWh Nissan battery as well as addressing concerns from the past batteries to the future batteries. Quite a few of my personal questions are more angled at dealing with heat degradation since it greatly affects me.

What is the useable percentage likely to be?

How many people will buy the cars expecting to use it's relatively full range each day?

Do we think it will still be a 12 bar setup?

If it is a 12 bar system and warranty is still a minimum repair to 9, will it still work for 200 mile buyers?

Do we think Nissan will repair the warrantied battery or replace it in it's entirety?

Do we feel the capacity warranty won't kick in until about the same AHr (maybe a little higher to compensate for higher weight) and the car can barely go over 40 miles on surface streets as it is now with 24kWh at 8 bars?

What about pushing around the extra 200 pounds?

What about pushing around a weak heavier battery as it depletes?

Will there be more tire wear with this a heavier Leaf.

What about extra QC time?

What about existing QC stations without enough kW for larger batteries?

Do we think many people will still be pushing the range of approximately 100 miles out and a 100 miles back?

With 2 and 1/2 times the density of the 24kWh battery, will it degrade at a faster or slower rate in hot climates? Example: Arizona batteries are degrading on average about 2% per month @ 24kWh pack size.

How will cold weather effect these batteries and range?

Etc. What is your opinion?
Last edited by Evoforce on Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:28 am, edited 6 times in total.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 51,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

desiv
Posts: 586
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:10 pm
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Leaf Number: 018850
Location: Lincoln City, Oregon

Re: What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:53 pm

I fully have expectations of concerns... ;-)

I expect the Leaf 2.0 cars to have about twice the range of the Leaf 1.0 cars.
So that means I'm not necessarily expecting 60kwh myself (will be happy if it does, but..).

I expect right around (but under) 200 mile range, realistically 160ish...
(Again, I'll be happy if its more.)

I expect no active TMS (so no active cooling for the battery).

I expect it to cost less than the Tesla Model 3 and Bolt...

I expect not to buy the first year of that car (if I do buy one), as I like to wait for the 2nd year of a new/major upgraded model. ;-)

desiv
2012 SL - Silver

Valdemar
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Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:32 pm

One concern is it'll never see production.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

camasleaf
Posts: 608
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Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:45 pm

I am concerned that a 40kWh version will not be made available for the 2011 Leafs.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 71000 miles, GID 213 49.88 AHr; 76%SOH; 16.5kWh
2015 SV 09/02/14, Over 15000 miles, GID 287; 61.12AHr; 98%SOH; 22.2kWh
5.7kW DC System:

arnis
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Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:59 am

What about extra QC time?

What about existing QC stations without enough kW for larger batteries?


Those are easy to estimate.
There is no such thing as QC station that is not powerful enough. There are really slow QC stations but they can
charge 90kWh Tesla's pack no problem :lol:

Let's suppose 50kW infrastructure will be "available enough" (and 100kW will be the dream of the future),
charging time for 60kWh pack from 0% to 80% will be like an hour :)
24kWh pack can take up to 7kWh in 10 minutes. But only at really limited charge state (somewhere between 5%-40%).
On 60kWh it will look something like:
56kWh real capacity
00,0% -start
12,5% 07kWh - 10 minutes
25,0% 14kWh - 20 minutes
37,5% 21kWh - 30 minutes
50,0% 28kWh - 40 minutes
62,5% 35kWh - 50 minutes
75,0% 42kWh - 60 minutes
85% 47,5kWh - 70 minutes
92% 51,5kWh - 80 minutes
95% 53,0kWh - 90 minutes
Let's not forget that ChaDeMo is always limited to 1 hour by default.
It will be reasonable to charge for 1 hour max on 50kW charger as usually starting SOC will be 5-15%
and with no active cooling too much heat will be accumulated in the cells, like twice as much.

If Nissan will offer 100kW charging on 60kWh Leaf2 then we can be quite sure that there will be active
cooling inside the battery. Most likely air cooling like e-NV200 has but that is absolutely enough.
They say that 60kWh pack will be really really low resistance but I don't believe that. 20%, maybe.
Charging faster than 50kW is going to make a hell inside a passive pack. Think of that this way:
passive cooling is like constant number. It just cools down when you drive. But if you charge
twice as fast you gain heat at 2x speed compared to 24kWh Leaf. Charging once will not be a problem.
Charging twice on the other hand will not be possible. And in Germany on autobahns people can deplete
Leafs really fast. Even if top speed will stay the same depleting 60kWh pack will take an hour.

If they are stupid enough not to offer AC heat exchanger in the pack (as an option, like 7,2kWh charger or QC port)
they will fail hard. Even if they get packs resistance low it will not stay that way for half a decade.
Most likely they don't even know right now will they get chemistry good enough to stay away from cooling or not :lol:
This year they will feel the pain for doing that mistake in 2011 - a lot of owners will get a new battery this year :D :twisted:
On the other hand it's not the charging temperature that kills the battery. It's the average temperature.
On the third hand ( :mrgreen: ) some regions won't buy Leaf2 if it doesn't have active cooling, even if they
"get the chemistry right". Buyers in hot climates want to tick a box in options list called: "battery cooling".
I wouldn't. I don't need that. I'll be fine with the warranty only.
Base price will stay the same so win-win for everybody.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

powersurge
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Location: Long Island, NY

Re: What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:50 am

I don't understand why people are talking about 60 kw and 100kw batteries, which are non-existent at this time. We just got the 30 kw batteries in 2016, and people are not happy with that. They are already planning what they are going to do with themselves in 2022 when the 60kws come out??

People don't realize that we really don't need to have so much capacity in our cars on a daily basis. Why do I want to pay for and carry around a battery that will take me 200 miles if I only drive 50 miles per day? When I buy a 200 mile EV, the price will probably be thousands of dollars more than now, and when I have to replace the battery, a $5,000 replacement (current 24kw battery) will be a $10,000 replacement (60 kw).

Sounds like people are falling into a "hoarder" mentality, just like when people feel they have to have the smallest, fastest, cheapest computer. A car does not have to be the "newest, fastest, highest capacity" for it to be useful... I have the 24kw battery, and drive about 70 miles per day. When I replace the battery, I will decide what battery I will buy, depending on the market prices.

In my opinion, Anyone who currently owns a Leaf bought it because it fills your current and future driving needs (otherwise why buy it). Those who are drooling over doubling and tripling the battery size are just day dreaming, and not appreciating the moment....

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Stanton
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Re: What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:03 am

powersurge wrote:Sounds like people are falling into a "hoarder" mentality, just like when people feel they have to have the smallest, fastest, cheapest computer. A car does not have to be the "newest, fastest, highest capacity" for it to be useful... I have the 24kw battery, and drive about 70 miles per day. When I replace the battery, I will decide what battery I will buy, depending on the market prices.

In my opinion, Anyone who currently owns a Leaf bought it because it fills your current and future driving needs (otherwise why buy it). Those who are drooling over doubling and tripling the battery size are just day dreaming, and not appreciating the moment....


You make a good point, and I sometimes drive about the same distance in a day as you (maybe a little less ~60 miles). However, before I got my (warranty) replacement battery pack, that was a problem. I am now reminded that my original range assumptions/analysis for the Leaf were adequate, but the trick is maintaining that 80-90 mile "real world" range. Hopefully there will be many BEV choices (or even replacement packs for the Leaf) by the time I get down to that 50-60 mile limit again.
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery & FIAMM 74100 horns
Wet Okole seat covers (front)
Tor's low-power heater mod
2013 sun visor
3G modem upgrade
L2 EVSE Upgrade
Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

kolmstead
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Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:07 pm
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Leaf Number: 000257
Location: Ridgecrest, California (100 miles east of Bakersfield)

Re: What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:16 am

Exactly. It's not hoarding, it is hedging against capacity loss. It has become clear that Nissan does not have a handle on hot climate battery life. If I need 60 miles from my Leaf and want it to last 8 years, then it needs to start out with 50-60 kWh.

-Karl

Firetruck41
Posts: 501
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:36 am
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Location: SW Washington State

Re: What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:27 pm

I'm looking forward to bigger battery capacity. I might be able to get rid of one of my ICEs in the future if the range is sufficient for my needs. The sooner they get here the better, since I will buy a 3-5year old used model. I really could care less about battery size/capacity, what I really care about is range. I would like the most range that I can reasonably afford, in a BEV. So, in a few years, if I can get a nice used BEV with a range of 150-200 miles in the winter, with limited battery degradation, I will be happy. It will become the 2nd BEV in the family fleet, with only the 1/2 ton truck remaining as our ICE.
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: What expectation or concerns do we have of a Nissan 60kwh battery

Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:44 pm

price...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30 (build 10/2016); 22,003 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 101.21% kwh 28.1 QCs 190, L2's 213
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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