LeftieBiker
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Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:55 pm

Has it been determined whether latest chemistry still suffers from significant degradation in heat?


Yes, and it does.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

EatsShootsandLeafs
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Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:55 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:
NavyCuda wrote:Active cooling is a band aid solution.

The chemistry needs to be improved so cooling isn't needed. Once the cooling crutch is used it's hard to get off of.

I applaud Nissan for making the right, but difficult choice.

If you're in a climate that the Leaf doesn't work as well in, by all means buy a Garbage Motors Bolt.
So in your opinion the right choice for nissan is to treat the battery now as if it's a battery from the future; give or not give active cooling based not on the current chemistry actually in the car, but the chemistry that they have in a power point presentation of their hoped-but-currently-unavailable state?


Highly doubt that is his opinion more than it is yours.

It is correct to state that using TMS is a bandaid solution because it is. Even Musk admits that. The reality is TMS would add to the price. I choose to not pay that price. It is a personal decision we must all make.
That must be why Tesla, Chevy, etc. all suffer the notorious range destruction that Nissan does, right?

You've been on these forums for a while and you know that nissan is unique in its profound loss of range in some cars. You also know why.

Call it a crutch, a bandaid, whatever, but nissan's engineering to date has been inferior, as evidenced in the field with packs dying at rates well above competitors'.

What are seatbelts but a bandaid because cars are not safe enough?

EatsShootsandLeafs
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Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 am
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Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:56 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Has it been determined whether latest chemistry still suffers from significant degradation in heat?


Yes, and it does.
If that's the case Nissan will keep being stubborn and not using TMS? So we'll read more posts about people with range issues in their new cars and destroyed resale again? And more excuses here about how, yes TMS would have saved these packs, but we should support nissan in not using them because down the road, at some unknown future point, TMS won't be needed, so let's pretend that day is today even if we're scorching the batteries and noticing significant loss of range in one, two, three years.

2011RedLeaf
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Leaf Number: 3999

Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:26 am

Without active cooling or a very impressive battery warranty, I will wait at least 2 years before buying a 2.0.

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
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Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:19 am

EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
Has it been determined whether latest chemistry still suffers from significant degradation in heat?


Yes, and it does.
If that's the case Nissan will keep being stubborn and not using TMS? So we'll read more posts about people with range issues in their new cars and destroyed resale again? And more excuses here about how, yes TMS would have saved these packs, but we should support nissan in not using them because down the road, at some unknown future point, TMS won't be needed, so let's pretend that day is today even if we're scorching the batteries and noticing significant loss of range in one, two, three years.


premature statement based on a few outliers with 2015 build dates used to speculate on a car that has not even hit the streets.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EatsShootsandLeafs
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Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:07 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
Yes, and it does.
If that's the case Nissan will keep being stubborn and not using TMS? So we'll read more posts about people with range issues in their new cars and destroyed resale again? And more excuses here about how, yes TMS would have saved these packs, but we should support nissan in not using them because down the road, at some unknown future point, TMS won't be needed, so let's pretend that day is today even if we're scorching the batteries and noticing significant loss of range in one, two, three years.


premature statement based on a few outliers with 2015 build dates used to speculate on a car that has not even hit the streets.
You can't be serious. The number of cars with missing bars across all years is legion. I know you know that, so your post is baffling but I don't want to accuse you of being disingenuous yet. Nissan fooled some people with Gen 1 over multiple years. Until they can prove 2+ years into Gen 2 that their batteries hold up, the safe route is to assume once again that they won't.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:24 pm

I don't know of any 2017 Leafs with 2015 build dates. Does anyone? The low SOH problem started with the 2016 Leaf, seems to be present in build dates throughout the whole year of 2016, and seems to be continuing with the 2017 Leafs. The SOH is just not staying near 100% in many of them, even when new. I suppose it's possible that this is just a difference in internal resistance in the 30kwh pack, but I wouldn't want to bet tens of thousands of dollars on that. If I do lease a 2018 Leaf, it will be with the assumption that it will lose 20% capacity over the years I drive it.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
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Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:16 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I don't know of any 2017 Leafs with 2015 build dates. Does anyone? The low SOH problem started with the 2016 Leaf, seems to be present in build dates throughout the whole year of 2016, and seems to be continuing with the 2017 Leafs. The SOH is just not staying near 100% in many of them, even when new. I suppose it's possible that this is just a difference in internal resistance in the 30kwh pack, but I wouldn't want to bet tens of thousands of dollars on that. If I do lease a 2018 Leaf, it will be with the assumption that it will lose 20% capacity over the years I drive it.


Not aware of any 2017's with significant degradation but mostly because they just haven't been around enough but two more 30 kwh's popped up this weekend losing bars which makes like a half dozen or so? Both these recent ones were 12/15 builds. Is that significant?

who knows but it does follow a pattern of rough starts with nearly every change Nissan has made since this was a new battery.

But then again, its easier to cite the past when predicting the future it seems.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
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Location: Colorado

Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:38 pm

EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:You can't be serious. The number of cars with missing bars across all years is legion. I know you know that, so your post is baffling but I don't want to accuse you of being disingenuous yet. Nissan fooled some people with Gen 1 over multiple years. Until they can prove 2+ years into Gen 2 that their batteries hold up, the safe route is to assume once again that they won't.


You and I view 2017 cars as unproven to be better than what came before
Dave views 2017 cars as unproven to be the same or worse than what came before.

Dave is not wrong, but there is no reason to think his optimism will turn out to be correct.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

SageBrush
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Re: Predicting Range & Value of LEAF Gen 2

Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:44 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote: Both these recent ones were 12/15 builds. Is that significant?

The parsimonious explanation is that it takes around 15 months to lose a bar.

By the way, while I was skimming the 30 kWh battery range lost thread I got the impression that one bar loss now coincides with 20% loss of capacity.

Disclaimer: I've definitely lost confidence in Nissan so there is some bias in my growing feeling that 3 bar loss in these cars will turn out to be more than 33% loss of capacity. And it certainly points out the weakness in an 8yr/100k warranty without a capacity loss threshold number.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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