DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:26 pm

internalaudit wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2017/08/eeny-meeny-miney-moe-wait-something-is.html


If you don't want to read the blog, for an "all in price" $35,375 (if the leak is accurate) I have climate package with the heated seats, hybrid heater, REAR HEATER VENTS!!!, the tech package, etc.

With the only drawback being range. With an estimated 38.4 kwh usable, that is 153.6 miles @ 4 miles per kwh.

BUT

that was what I can do with minimal compromise in my 2016 LEAF. The 2018 is supposedly more efficient which would imply that a higher range is likely but who knows, right?

But that is Summer (with AC blasting, driving "somewhat" illegally.... one speeding ticket so far... :? )

In Winter, we are now looking at an average of 3.5 miles per kwh or 134.4 miles per charge.

All of this is VERY much acceptable to me so much so that this is likely to be the first LEAF worth buying IMHO

if....

The degradation is acceptable. What improvements have we to look forward to?

Well, as always, its my opinion that later 2017 builds will give us a hint. We already have 30 kwh packs failing but they all seem to have a 2015 build date.

The S trim was given the 30 kwh pack with VERY strange timing and I think that timing is significant (laugh if you want, you have a LOT of company!) and I think that the longevity of my pack will be a good indicator of what 40 KWHers can expect.

Or you can get an extra 80ish miles of range for a few thousand more with considerably less tech and "maybe" some comfort considerations.


or you can get something that is close in tech, much cooler and nearly double the range for well, the price of the 2017 LEAF AND the 2018...

yeah, like my only question here;

How is this a question? ;)


Interesting read David. I sure hope Nissan announces a 60 kWh battery version and an estimated delivery date for that. Here in Ontario, Canada, we currently have a very generous government incentive of about $11k USD after tax but if the incumbent political party loses the June 2018 election, that incentive may be removed by the winning party.

Quite a few Tesla reservation holders who don't meet the full $7,500 credit (and are more cost conscious and practical) may switch over if a 50-60 kWh battery is what they want.


Well, the showed the 60 kwh pack a few years back so its coming but in what vehicle? Did you see the rumors about an entire LEAF division with multiple platforms like SUVs and mini vans?

Wouldn't it be a shocker if Nissan announced several vehicles in 3 weeks?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 24,261.3 miles.363 GIDAhr 80.66Hx95.95%kwh28.1QCs205,L2's 226
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IssacZachary
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm

Another thing about battery thermal management systems. Yes there are down sides to not having one. But as mentioned before it can be a double edge sword. Not to mention it's another part to fail and go wrong. I prefer simplicity. Battery chemistry should get better and more resistant to climate. If Nissan can do that, make a more heat tolerant battery instead of adding a system that uses up energy as your car sits doing nothing and has the potential of catching your car on fire if it fails then I'd chose Nissan.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

Zythryn
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:44 am

internalaudit wrote:
Nubo wrote:
internalaudit wrote:Besides price differential, potential drive unit issues, a few minor ones, and reliance on Service Centers to service and repair Tesla vehicles, what is making your gravitate towards the next gen Leaf?

Thanks.


- Availability

- Any body damage to Teslas tends to be prohibitively expensive to repair, and Tesla dictates where you're "allowed" to get bodywork done. They have gone so far as to remotely disable the vehicle.

- Overly proprietary attitude towards what YOU can do with YOUR car (see above, but extends to other areas).

- Tesla battery chemistry is inherently less stable. Though they've mitigated that with considerable systems safeguards, you should still be aware. If the car says you need to get out, get out.

- Over-reliance on touch-panel controls, in lieu of simple tactile knobs and buttons. Not conducive to effective manipulation in a moving/bouncing vehicle, or for older drivers who can't shift visual focus as quickly from far to near. Poor human engineering. I've heard they're also implementing voice controls. I asked Siri how well that works. She never got back to me.

- Tesla's active thermal control is a double-edged sword. It runs even when vehicle is off, consuming energy (a.k.a. "vampire load"). I've come back to my un-plugged LEAF after weeks of downtime to find the main pack at practically the same state of charge as when I left it. I like that. Also, part of the reason for Tesla's elaborate thermal control is ultimately the finicky nature of their battery chemistry (see above).


Thanks for enumerating the negatives. One concern I am aware of (based on some readings over at TMC) is Tesla doesn't allow for independent drive unit replacement (say, from a junk shop). Not sure if battery replacements are also disallowed. That means customers will be at the mercy of Tesla once warranty is over or if repair work isn't covered by the warranty.

=====

Thanks everyone. Sounds like I will have to wait for the 50/60 kWh battery pack version of the Leaf to even consider it but since I have late 2018 estimate for a Tesla, I will check out the non-clarity Honda BEV as well as the Korean ones. I doubt the German BEVs are going to be as affordable so I probably won't bother and it doesn't seem like they have gotten rid of the electric gremlins anyway.


Price is the biggest factor.
Most of the information by Nubo is actually either unknown, or factually incorrect.
If the 2018 timing works for you, availability isn't an issue. I would suggest keeping an eye on Tesla's ramp up as if there are any issues slowing it down that could delay yours.

Repairs: The Model 3 has much more steel than the S or X and a lot of focus has been put on making it an easier car to maintain. Working with aluminum body panels on the S and X is a big part of the added costs. Repairs may still be more expensive than on a LEAF, but they shouldn't be anywhere as expensive as an S or X.
Yes, Tesla has authorized body shops. I can and have had more typical work done elsewhere (suspension, tires, brakes, etc).
Tesla has disabled "salvage" title cars until they are inspected. I know someone that buys and refurbishes salvaged Teslas.

The battery tech is less stable, and has a greater energy density. Out of Billions of miles traveled, 3(?) incidents of road debris causing a fire have occurred. 3 more than in a LEAF, far fewer than in an ICE. None of those incidents had any injuries.

I far prefer the touch panel controls. This is a matter of preference. However, most controls you would want while driving can be mapped to the steering wheel buttons.

Tesl'a battery management will monitor the battery while the caris off. If the temps get out of a certain range it will kick in. If the car is plugged in, that range is smaller. If it isn't, the range is greater so it runs less often. I typically loose one mile of range each day the car isn't plugged in. This may change in the 3, but the change, if any, would be minimal.

I have friends in Minnesota whose 5 year old Leafs no longer have the range they need. Nowhere near as severe as the range losses in the SW, but still significant. Even with the small energy loss, I'll take the active management any day.

All that said, the LEAFhas a number of advantages, and differences that may personally appeal to you.
I'm hesitant about not having a driver's display behind the steering wheel.

I would also add that we haven't seen enough yet of either vehicle. I'd give it a few months until you can get more information about both.
Previous owner of Prius, Volt & Leaf
Current owner of Model S
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internalaudit
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:12 am

^ Thanks Zythryn for enumerating some pros and cons for each.

As for salvaged Tesla's, I was speaking more about salvaged parts like the expensive battery pack and drive units. I read from one or two posts on TMC that they cannot be re-used on a vehicle because the serial number will be rejected unless Tesla or an authorized repair center is able to make those salvaged components compatible by software updates.

Good to know that besides electrical, electronics and those two components, other mechanical components can be serviced elsewhere.

It is really going to be exciting times for would be BEV owners who are playing the waiting game and don't mind driving their ICE vehicles in the mean time.

Zythryn
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:26 am

internalaudit wrote:^ Thanks Zythryn for enumerating some pros and cons for each.

As for salvaged Tesla's, I was speaking more about salvaged parts like the expensive battery pack and drive units. I read from one or two posts on TMC that they cannot be re-used on a vehicle because the serial number will be rejected unless Tesla or an authorized repair center is able to make those salvaged components compatible by software updates.

Good to know that besides electrical, electronics and those two components, other mechanical components can be serviced elsewhere.

It is really going to be exciting times for would be BEV owners who are playing the waiting game and don't mind driving their ICE vehicles in the mean time.


Just to be clear, Tesla is very conservative when it comes repairing the drivetrain/battery. I have heard of people doing work on the drivetrains, but they are basically 'on their own' and I don't believe any warranties are in affect on a salvaged vehicle.
I don't know what the policies will be for the 3, but I would be surprised if work on the battery pack can be done anywhere but Tesla.

This second generation of electrics will be very interesting. I love the fact that the LEAF gen 2, Bolt and Model 3 are distinct, each with their own pros and cons. More choices for us!
Previous owner of Prius, Volt & Leaf
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webb14leafs
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:46 am

A few points:

1 - I don't know how your EV incentives are structured in Canada, but here in the states it's very likely that all of Teslas EV credits will be used up by the time they start producing the $35K model for people without current reservations. $7,500 is a pretty compelling reason.

2 - I would think 140 miles in the winter would be achievable if you have access even to to just a regular outlet. You can add 40-50 miles of range in an 8 hour day with a level 1 charger. This should be plenty to ensure your car makes it home.

3 - Aside from aesthetics, the only reason to pay more for a Tesla is its charging network. Don't get me wrong - this is a huge plus, and possibly essential for someone with a long commute like you.

internalaudit
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:08 am

^ Thanks for chiming in.

In Canada, the only reason the $11k USD (before tax) would go away is if the incumbent political party changes its mind or loses the June 2018 election.

90% of the time, my wife needs to travel 140 miles once a week but there's the odd week where she is asked to join her team twice.

I never considered the SCN at selling point because we don't drive cross country and because I don't get free charging with a Model 3 anyway and knowing my wife, she will not want to be inconvenienced looking for a public charger. She will charge an EV if her employer provides one.


So the initial Tesla RWD's were plagued by drive unit issues while the Leaf plagued by declining battery capacities. While over at TMC, someone mentioned Kia/Hyundai trying to skirt honoring their longer warranties by point towards other components that were the point of failure...

It seems the battery issues with the Leaf is the easiest to resolved but then Nissan doesn't think Active Cooling is necessary.

webb14leafs
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:46 am

90% of the time, my wife needs to travel 140 miles once a week but there's the odd week where she is asked to join her team twice.


Sounds like an EV might not be a good choice as your primary car then.

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abasile
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:46 am

internalaudit wrote:So the initial Tesla RWD's were plagued by drive unit issues while the Leaf plagued by declining battery capacities.

Faced with declining battery capacities, Nissan resisted taking responsibility and pushed many away from the brand. The capacity loss on our 2011 LEAF (bought new) is unacceptable, yet it's not quite enough to qualify for a warranty replacement, so we're left with a crippled car. Nissan should have simply replaced all defective batteries, no questions asked.

Tesla, on the other hand, has generally been very good at taking care of its customers. They retroactively added an unlimited-mile warranty (8 years) on the drive units.

I will say that I appreciate the simplicity of the LEAF, though. As much as I'd prefer not to have to deal with traditional car dealers, we haven't had to do much of that over the course of our 6+ years of LEAF ownership. It's nice to have a car that, aside from the battery capacity loss, requires very little maintenance.

In the end, the Model 3 should meet our family's requirements for our next car purchase while LEAF 2.0 will not. Those requirements include range (close to 300 miles per charge) and/or AWD.
2011 LEAF at 69K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 89K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

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abasile
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:47 am

webb14leafs wrote:
90% of the time, my wife needs to travel 140 miles once a week but there's the odd week where she is asked to join her team twice.

Sounds like an EV might not be a good choice as your primary car then.

You mean an EV other than a Tesla or a Bolt?
2011 LEAF at 69K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 89K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

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