webb14leafs
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:43 am
Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:12 am

abasile wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:
90% of the time, my wife needs to travel 140 miles once a week but there's the odd week where she is asked to join her team twice.

Sounds like an EV might not be a good choice as your primary car then.

You mean an EV other than a Tesla or a Bolt?


I'm assuming the 140 miles is one way, in which case no current EVs will suffice during the winter if she is not willing or able to charge. If the 140 miles is round trip, then YES a Tesla or Bolt will work. I would also say that the Leaf should still work. Seems unreasonable to be unwilling to charge the car at some point on this trip. 2 hours on a Level 2 charger (if it's close to the destination) or 20 minutes on a Level 3 charger would be plenty.

internalaudit
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:34 am
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2032

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:28 am

webb14leafs wrote:
90% of the time, my wife needs to travel 140 miles once a week but there's the odd week where she is asked to join her team twice.


Sounds like an EV might not be a good choice as your primary car then.


It would be foolish for me to purchase a below 180 (or thereabout) mile BEV knowing fully well what my wife's driving needs are. I also know she will not be too willing to drive and charge at a public station if her employer no longer has one.

I will only entertain BEVs that cover 90% of our driving needs and because the 140 mile trips comprised 15-20% of the distance covered, the only ones that make sense are the Bolt and Tesla and maybe a future 60 kWh Nissan BEV.

I'm not in a rush really because depreciation on any vehicle will almost be so much more than the gasoline savings and if post-warranty, major issues crop up, I would definitely regret purchasing a less reliable BEV because I've gotten used to the above average reliability of Honda and Toyota vehicles. A third car is nice to have but isn't necessary but it will definitely be a BEV.

=====
I like this forum better though there is fewer posts / activity compared to Tesla TMC. Might see more posts once the new Leaf details come out. People here are more helpful and don't seem to bash other people's posts.

Over at TMC, it seems one is considered a basher if one raises some concern about the Model 3's limited battery and drive train unit, the costs of packages/add-ons, and so forth. People there don't seem to want to keep an open mind and majority are Tesla fanatics.

On the Tesla forum itself, one of my legitimate post on reliability concerns was deleted so I wouldn't even bother with that site.

internalaudit
Posts: 72
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:34 am
Delivery Date: 09 Aug 2032

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:31 am

webb14leafs wrote:
abasile wrote:
webb14leafs wrote:Sounds like an EV might not be a good choice as your primary car then.

You mean an EV other than a Tesla or a Bolt?


I'm assuming the 140 miles is one way, in which case no current EVs will suffice during the winter if she is not willing or able to charge. If the 140 miles is round trip, then YES a Tesla or Bolt will work. I would also say that the Leaf should still work. Seems unreasonable to be unwilling to charge the car at some point on this trip. 2 hours on a Level 2 charger (if it's close to the destination) or 20 minutes on a Level 3 charger would be plenty.


It's round trip.

Need to find out about ESA/extended warranty on the Tesla and the Leaf (likely wait for the 50-60 kWh model though) because we tend to hold on to our vehicles for a really long time and hopefully, neither of them try to shirk warranty responsibilities when the time comes.

internalaudit
Posts: 72
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:37 am

abasile wrote:
internalaudit wrote:So the initial Tesla RWD's were plagued by drive unit issues while the Leaf plagued by declining battery capacities.

Faced with declining battery capacities, Nissan resisted taking responsibility and pushed many away from the brand. The capacity loss on our 2011 LEAF (bought new) is unacceptable, yet it's not quite enough to qualify for a warranty replacement, so we're left with a crippled car. Nissan should have simply replaced all defective batteries, no questions asked.

Tesla, on the other hand, has generally been very good at taking care of its customers. They retroactively added an unlimited-mile warranty (8 years) on the drive units.

I will say that I appreciate the simplicity of the LEAF, though. As much as I'd prefer not to have to deal with traditional car dealers, we haven't had to do much of that over the course of our 6+ years of LEAF ownership. It's nice to have a car that, aside from the battery capacity loss, requires very little maintenance.

In the end, the Model 3 should meet our family's requirements for our next car purchase while LEAF 2.0 will not. Those requirements include range (close to 300 miles per charge) and/or AWD.


Surprised how Nissan reacted to the battery issue. I read about a few were Nissan shouldered 50% of the replacement costs but I think a class action suit was necessary to get them to do that. I admit, I haven't really read a whole lot about the issue except for the lack of active cooling because the first gen Leaf will never serve 90% of my household's driving needs.

With Tesla, it's not a surprise because if they alienate the Model S owners with the drive unit milling issues, their customer base would have eroded and the company could imploded because Tesla was a one trick pony back then.

Good to know everything but the Leaf battery is holding up. People are saying Nissan quality is short of Honda / Toyota. This is only from a few posts I read that suggest Nissan isn't as quality-focused as Toyota. I have always gravitated toward Honda but got a RAV 4 Hybrid because the technology is rock solid. With Toyota dilly dallying about entering the BEV market and Honda possibly releasing a non-Clarity BEV with a shorter than Leaf Range, I'm caught between a later iteration of Leaf 2.0 or a Tesla Model 3.

webb14leafs
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:43 am
Delivery Date: 27 Mar 2017

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:37 am

Need to find out about ESA/extended warranty on the Tesla and the Leaf (likely wait for the 50-60 kWh model though) because we tend to hold on to our vehicles for a really long time and hopefully, neither of them try to shirk warranty responsibilities when the time comes.


Another option would be to wait for the Bolts to show up on the used market. You might be able to snag one for under $15K in a couple years as they start to come off of their leases.

I purchased my Leaf used and I'm not sure I would purchase a new EV right now. The used market is just too good, and I think that there will be so many technological changes in the next couple of years that I want to see how it plays out before I drop $30K or more on a car.

EatsShootsandLeafs
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:35 pm

When I had a 2012 Leaf its hardcore winter range was under 2 miles/kwh. Slow traffic, very cold temps, heat on bust. That was a 50% reduction in range from the stated. Be careful getting "winter" range estimates from people who live in moderate states. When it's cold as hell in Ottawa (for example) and you want to have the heat on full and you're creeping along at an average of 10-15 mph, your range is going to get slashed hard. You can forget a "160 miles range" EV being able to bring you 140 miles in a Canadian winter. Unless you're okay regularly dropping your highway speed to 40 to eek out more miles, it can't be done. Truthfully I wouldn't feel comfortable with that demand in the 220 tesla, either. Just cutting it too close. Think about what happens if you're stuck on the freeway in a storm, un-moving for an hour or two and then creeping along at 6 mph. And you can't even turn the heat off all the way because the windows fog (yeah I used to do that "fun" trick in my Leaf to try and extend the winter range). Extended winter trips you want a massive buffer of range.

Personally I have money down on a model 3. I prefer it over the leaf not just for the range (the leaf's 160 mile claimed range would be okay for city for me, even in hard winter), it will look better, drive better, but of great importance to me is the autonomy they are pushing. Frankly I just don't think I can get excited about another car unless it has some qualitative enhancement over what I have now, and huge amounts of autonomy are that. This said, I don't know what propilot can do right now. It may be a lot. It seems like it does a lot of what tesla's EAP does.

But, I want a car I can put on the highway, press a button, and take my hands off everything. Cadillac's super cruise will allow this. EAP may not yet (it wants your hands on the wheel like propilot), but that's just a software unlock.

The Leaf is a cheaper car to buy and you can definitely take advantage of the full federal tax credit. If you don't yet have a model 3 reservation you can forget that. You'll get half (at most). I guess that's moot in canada, though.

My guess is the leaf's reliability will be better and it will be easier to service. I have not ruled out a Leaf BTW. Really the Leaf is the "practical" choice, like buying a prius. The tesla is the fun one.

Durandal
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:20 pm

EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:When I had a 2012 Leaf its hardcore winter range was under 2 miles/kwh. Slow traffic, very cold temps, heat on bust. That was a 50% reduction in range from the stated. Be careful getting "winter" range estimates from people who live in moderate states. When it's cold as hell in Ottawa (for example) and you want to have the heat on full and you're creeping along at an average of 10-15 mph, your range is going to get slashed hard. You can forget a "160 miles range" EV being able to bring you 140 miles in a Canadian winter. Unless you're okay regularly dropping your highway speed to 40 to eek out more miles, it can't be done. Truthfully I wouldn't feel comfortable with that demand in the 220 tesla, either. Just cutting it too close. Think about what happens if you're stuck on the freeway in a storm, un-moving for an hour or two and then creeping along at 6 mph. And you can't even turn the heat off all the way because the windows fog (yeah I used to do that "fun" trick in my Leaf to try and extend the winter range). Extended winter trips you want a massive buffer of range.

Personally I have money down on a model 3. I prefer it over the leaf not just for the range (the leaf's 160 mile claimed range would be okay for city for me, even in hard winter), it will look better, drive better, but of great importance to me is the autonomy they are pushing. Frankly I just don't think I can get excited about another car unless it has some qualitative enhancement over what I have now, and huge amounts of autonomy are that. This said, I don't know what propilot can do right now. It may be a lot. It seems like it does a lot of what tesla's EAP does.

But, I want a car I can put on the highway, press a button, and take my hands off everything. Cadillac's super cruise will allow this. EAP may not yet (it wants your hands on the wheel like propilot), but that's just a software unlock.

The Leaf is a cheaper car to buy and you can definitely take advantage of the full federal tax credit. If you don't yet have a model 3 reservation you can forget that. You'll get half (at most). I guess that's moot in canada, though.

My guess is the leaf's reliability will be better and it will be easier to service. I have not ruled out a Leaf BTW. Really the Leaf is the "practical" choice, like buying a prius. The tesla is the fun one.

Well for cold winters, getting the 310 mile Model 3 along with waiting for dual motor all wheel drive is probably your best option. That will give you lots of extra range for those cold days, plus extra agility of dual motor. I'm torn between getting my Model 3 early and waiting for dual motors.. I may just camp out on my Model 3 reservation until my Leaf can no longer serve me adequately. Of course, all of this may go out the window if employment situations change as well, and I may have to limp along with the Leaf as long as I can... :?
Pulled the trigger on going EV on 10/2016 with a 2012 Leaf, and a Tesla Model 3 reservation expected to receive in June 2018.

joeriv
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:23 pm

It seems to me that perhaps we focus too much on battery size and not enough on "what for?" If I lived in Canada and wanted a BEV as a primary car, I'd be hard pressed to find one that really meets all my needs. However, if I want a second car for local driving, a 30 kw Leaf will fill my needs easily (if you want to see a very long analysis on primary vs second car use, check this out: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0968090X16000371)).

IMHO a BEV can be the perfect second car for local driving. I don't do more than 50 miles/day so a 30 kw Leaf meets my needs for a second car. I routinely do long trips (700 miles) so my primary car is a Lexus ES350 - a great highway car. Most of the time the Lexus is under a cover.

So to the original question, Tesla or Leaf, considering my needs for a local car, I'd be hard pressed to justify $50,000 for a Tesla as a local car vs a Leaf at about $30,000 MSRP before incentives and discounts, which can lower the cost considerably.
2017 Leaf S with QC, JUN mfg date

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Nubo
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:15 pm

Zythryn wrote:Most of the information by Nubo is actually either unknown, or factually incorrect.

How so?

Availability is a legitimate concern. Anyone reserving Model3 now gets a slot for LATE 2018; assuming Tesla can meet its ambitious production goals.
Tesla does block avenues of repair unless you agree to their terms; examples are easy to find.
Bodywork costs are a function of Tesla-granted exclusivity, not just the amount of Aluminum. Costs are sky-high.
You agree the battery chemistry is less stable.
You stated your preference for touch-panel; I stated my preference for tactile knobs, which has a basis in Human Factors Engineering.
The vampire drain is real; your results don't necessarily represent what others will get in different temperature environments.

I gave the reasons for my preference. That you disagree about their importance, or have other priorities, does not make my statements factually incorrect. 
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:22 pm

abasile wrote:
internalaudit wrote:So the initial Tesla RWD's were plagued by drive unit issues while the Leaf plagued by declining battery capacities.

Faced with declining battery capacities, Nissan resisted taking responsibility and pushed many away from the brand. The capacity loss on our 2011 LEAF (bought new) is unacceptable, yet it's not quite enough to qualify for a warranty replacement, so we're left with a crippled car. Nissan should have simply replaced all defective batteries, no questions asked.

Tesla, on the other hand, has generally been very good at taking care of its customers. They retroactively added an unlimited-mile warranty (8 years) on the drive units.

I will say that I appreciate the simplicity of the LEAF, though. As much as I'd prefer not to have to deal with traditional car dealers, we haven't had to do much of that over the course of our 6+ years of LEAF ownership. It's nice to have a car that, aside from the battery capacity loss, requires very little maintenance.

In the end, the Model 3 should meet our family's requirements for our next car purchase while LEAF 2.0 will not. Those requirements include range (close to 300 miles per charge) and/or AWD.


Did you ever try to get a deal on a replacement battery? If so, when and what did they offer you?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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