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evnow
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:45 pm

joeriv wrote:So to the original question, Tesla or Leaf, considering my needs for a local car, I'd be hard pressed to justify $50,000 for a Tesla as a local car vs a Leaf at about $30,000 MSRP before incentives and discounts, which can lower the cost considerably.

How does $30k Leaf compare to $35k Model 3 ?
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to ?

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:18 pm

Nubo wrote:
Zythryn wrote:Most of the information by Nubo is actually either unknown, or factually incorrect.

How so?

Availability is a legitimate concern. Anyone reserving Model3 now gets a slot for LATE 2018; assuming Tesla can meet its ambitious production goals.
Tesla does block avenues of repair unless you agree to their terms; examples are easy to find.
Bodywork costs are a function of Tesla-granted exclusivity, not just the amount of Aluminum. Costs are sky-high.
You agree the battery chemistry is less stable.
You stated your preference for touch-panel; I stated my preference for tactile knobs, which has a basis in Human Factors Engineering.
The vampire drain is real; your results don't necessarily represent what others will get in different temperature environments.

I gave the reasons for my preference. That you disagree about their importance, or have other priorities, does not make my statements factually incorrect. 


I would not compare the vampire loads of older Teslas to the newer S models or the 3 which is different in every way possible. I used to be a die hard manual control person but after owning an S I would never look back. What you think you need in another EV or car you don't miss in a Tesla because it's a better implementation. The manual controls you need are still there.


Tesla has said it is going to likely make parts available to everyone per some new news and this may even include software tools. They must do this for a large number of reasons not just including the massive numbers of wrecked 3's that will soon be upon us.

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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:20 pm

joeriv wrote:It seems to me that perhaps we focus too much on battery size and not enough on "what for?" If I lived in Canada and wanted a BEV as a primary car, I'd be hard pressed to find one that really meets all my needs. However, if I want a second car for local driving, a 30 kw Leaf will fill my needs easily (if you want to see a very long analysis on primary vs second car use, check this out: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0968090X16000371)).

IMHO a BEV can be the perfect second car for local driving. I don't do more than 50 miles/day so a 30 kw Leaf meets my needs for a second car. I routinely do long trips (700 miles) so my primary car is a Lexus ES350 - a great highway car. Most of the time the Lexus is under a cover.

So to the original question, Tesla or Leaf, considering my needs for a local car, I'd be hard pressed to justify $50,000 for a Tesla as a local car vs a Leaf at about $30,000 MSRP before incentives and discounts, which can lower the cost considerably.


You asked what for is the BEV? I already mentioned I need it to gover 90% of our driving needs, which includes my wife's 140 mile round trip once a week. There isn't a charging station at her employer's building (used to have them previously at other locations).

Gasoline is 50% more expensive here than it is in the bordering NY towns (Niagara Falls, Amherst, etc.) and electricity at night is pretty decent at around 12 cents (9 cents USD) per kWh from 7-7 so the break even period for a BEV in Canada can be much shorter.

We have an 11 Accord and a 16 RAV4 Hybrid and eventually we'll need a third car for emergencies when our eldest child will have obtained her license because we have a toddler who will be in JK next September. We are not selling either of the two vehicles which is why we can afford to sit out an wait for that BEV that can cover our needs. Like you said, for long distance driving, I don't mind taking either of the ICE vehicles as they're really not gas guzzlers or just rent a car when flying across the continent.

The Accord is worth $10k USD if sold and it has not problems whatsoever and I still have extended warranty on until next year end. No point getting rid of it to buy another vehicle because it already has electronic stability control, which is probably one of the best safety features invented after ABS.

The winter climate in Toronto is a little worst than many parts of NY in terms of frigid temperature but we don't really get too much snow fall or snow storms so our winter will be better than Minnesota or adjacent states.

If there was no rumor about a 60 kWh battery pack for the Leaf, then I would definitely strike it off my list. I am a little hesitant to go with a Tesla especially if the ESA is inferior because it probably comes with average to below average reliability in the long run but the AWD options seems good. We tend to keep our vehicles longer and so may be able to splurge a little but not at the expense of significant increase in ownership costs, which we aren't used to owning Honda's and Toyota's.

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abasile
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:44 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Did you ever try to get a deal on a replacement battery? If so, when and what did they offer you?

No, I've never tried, for two reasons:

1. Our LEAF's reported capacity is currently 9/12 bars, which while quite lousy (relative to non-Nissan EVs) is above the warranty threshold of 8/12 bars. I've never heard of anyone getting a deal on a replacement battery with more than 8 capacity bars remaining. Our relatively cool climate has enabled our battery pack to degrade more slowly (too slowly for the warranty, too fast for practical purposes).

2. We have another EV (our pre-owned Tesla Model S) that we can usually use whenever the LEAF won't meet our needs. And if the Tesla isn't available, we have a Prius (which we plan to replace with a Model 3). Therefore, it just doesn't seem worthwhile to put significantly more money into our 2011 LEAF - it's not our "primary car".

That said, if after dropping to 8/12 capacity bars we can get Nissan to replace our battery for as little as $1200 (as has been the case recently for others on this forum), I'll probably go for that. But I still think Nissan should have offered a battery replacement for every pre-"Lizard Battery" LEAF at no charge, because the early batteries were defective. Even the newer LEAF batteries don't seem that great, but hopefully dropping AESC as the battery manufacturer will help going forward.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:52 pm

abasile wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Did you ever try to get a deal on a replacement battery? If so, when and what did they offer you?

No, I've never tried, for two reasons:

1. Our LEAF's reported capacity is currently 9/12 bars, which while quite lousy (relative to non-Nissan EVs) is above the warranty threshold of 8/12 bars. I've never heard of anyone getting a deal on a replacement battery with more than 8 capacity bars remaining. Our relatively cool climate has enabled our battery pack to degrade more slowly (too slowly for the warranty, too fast for practical purposes).

2. We have another EV (our pre-owned Tesla Model S) that we can usually use whenever the LEAF won't meet our needs. And if the Tesla isn't available, we have a Prius (which we plan to replace with a Model 3). Therefore, it just doesn't seem worthwhile to put significantly more money into our 2011 LEAF - it's not our "primary car".

That said, if after dropping to 8/12 capacity bars we can get Nissan to replace our battery for as little as $1200 (as has been the case recently for others on this forum), I'll probably go for that. But I still think Nissan should have offered a battery replacement for every pre-"Lizard Battery" LEAF at no charge, because the early batteries were defective. Even the newer LEAF batteries don't seem that great, but hopefully dropping AESC as the battery manufacturer will help going forward.


oh ok. thought you were at or below 8 already.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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abasile
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:09 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:I used to be a die hard manual control person but after owning an S I would never look back. What you think you need in another EV or car you don't miss in a Tesla because it's a better implementation. The manual controls you need are still there.

+1. When the iPhone first came out, I remember thinking that it was silly to eliminate a keyword with actual buttons...

I feel that the Tesla touchscreen is far superior to the abundance of manual knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. that you'll find on other cars. It offers so much more flexibility, as the vehicle can have screen after screen of controls for all sorts of purposes without cluttering up the cockpit. It's been routine for Tesla to improve and extend the UI via over-the-air software updates, meaning that older cars actually get better with age. And as others have mentioned, you can map common settings such as volume or fan speed to the steering wheel controls.

By contrast, the UI on our 2011 LEAF is still lacking basic instrumentation like percent state of charge (added in the 2013 model year) and an "EPA rated miles" (or km) display instead of the ever-fluctuating "guess-o-meter". Unlike our Tesla's nav system, the LEAF's nav doesn't even attempt to calculate the amount of charge needed to reach a given destination. All of this could be addressed through software updates (albeit requiring dealer visits), but this doesn't seem to be a priority for Nissan.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
LEAF battery: 9/12 bars and < 49 Ah (-28% vs. new)
Tesla battery: 250+ miles of range (-5% vs. new)

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Nubo
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:40 pm

abasile wrote:I feel that the Tesla touchscreen is far superior to the abundance of manual knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. that you'll find on other cars. It offers so much more flexibility, as the vehicle can have screen after screen of controls for all sorts of purposes without cluttering up the cockpit. ...

In a high-workload environment where lives are on the line, what's needed isn't flexibility or a bare cockpit. It's dedicated controls that do what you expect them to do, every time, that you can actuate immediately by feel alone without having to look or trying steady one's finger above a specific pixel during a bumpy car ride or worse yet drill down through multiple layers of such.

While the iPhone's keyboard interface is the right tool for the job, I certainly wouldn't replace my mechanical keyboard for serious typing.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:21 pm

Nubo wrote:
abasile wrote:I feel that the Tesla touchscreen is far superior to the abundance of manual knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. that you'll find on other cars. It offers so much more flexibility, as the vehicle can have screen after screen of controls for all sorts of purposes without cluttering up the cockpit. ...

In a high-workload environment where lives are on the line, what's needed isn't flexibility or a bare cockpit. It's dedicated controls that do what you expect them to do, every time, that you can actuate immediately by feel alone without having to look or trying steady one's finger above a specific pixel during a bumpy car ride or worse yet drill down through multiple layers of such.

While the iPhone's keyboard interface is the right tool for the job, I certainly wouldn't replace my mechanical keyboard for serious typing.

+1 on the Human Factors, although the ability to map to a steering wheel control is helpful, as would be verbal commands. There are few situations in a car that have the same high-workload environment as say an instrument approach in an a/c. Even so, given the choice I'll take dedicated physical controls as described in the bolded section any day, until such time as someone can demonstrate that configurable controls are superior in reaction time and accuracy, and don't require me to think about what the control does at this particular moment. It's been a long time since I had a girlfriend working in Human Factors whose conference journals I used to read, but AFAIA the research shows the opposite to be the case. A smart phone's control interface is great, provided you don't have to be simultaneously looking at something else and making control actions unrelated to the phone while using it, using extra mental cycles in the process. As that's the very definition of human driving, I'll pass until full autonomy arrives and it won't matter if I never look at the road. The Zombie Apocalypse is already here, but they shouldn't be driving cars:

Image
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:43 pm

Nubo wrote:
abasile wrote:I feel that the Tesla touchscreen is far superior to the abundance of manual knobs, sliders, buttons, etc. that you'll find on other cars. It offers so much more flexibility, as the vehicle can have screen after screen of controls for all sorts of purposes without cluttering up the cockpit. ...

In a high-workload environment where lives are on the line, what's needed isn't flexibility or a bare cockpit. It's dedicated controls that do what you expect them to do, every time, that you can actuate immediately by feel alone without having to look or trying steady one's finger above a specific pixel during a bumpy car ride or worse yet drill down through multiple layers of such.

While the iPhone's keyboard interface is the right tool for the job, I certainly wouldn't replace my mechanical keyboard for serious typing.



Sorry, there is nothing on my S that takes any extra effort to touch, the turn signals are not on the touch screen by the way and the car works so well on it's own I fumbled on other cars. My Tacoma is more challenging to operate than a Tesla. The thing you use when driving are on the wheel or are much larger than those on other cars on the screen. Have you ever spent any time driving a Tesla at length? I would bet all cars begin to follow this model. There is nothing that is less safe on the Tesla operationally.

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TomT
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:35 pm

Sorry, but I'll take Tesla battery chemistry, TMS, and management over Nissan's any day! My five years with Leaf taught me that!

Nubo wrote:- Tesla battery chemistry is inherently less stable.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier. Model 3 reserved.

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