cwerdna
Posts: 7830
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:44 am

edatoakrun wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:https://pushevs.com/2017/12/29/nissan-s ... mpetition/

The slide is claimed to be from Nissan, and certainly looks plausible.

The slide was the same one shown and a pic taken of at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... ater&ifg=1. I was at the same EVent (at Nissan's Sunnyvale research office) as the person (Steve) who posted that pic. The slide was put up by Brian, a Nissan North America marketing guy who flew in from NNA HQ in TN...

I was at Sunnyvale also, but do not have a photographic memory.

We should have a major clue as to the 2019 LEAF's actual EPA range will be, once the 150 (+ ?) mile EPA range of the 2018 "40 kWh" LEAF is revealed, perhaps in just a few days from now at San Diego.

I distinctly remember that slide and might've even had a picture of it but deleted since I wasn't sitting at a great angle vs. the screen.

I have pics of a few other slides (from an off-angle) on my phone still.

I suspect at least a few others who were at the same EVent will remember that slide. There were a few notable folks here on MNL (some not local) in attendance who I spoke to.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

edatoakrun
Posts: 5184
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Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:27 am

cwerdna wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
...We should have a major clue as to the 2019 LEAF's actual EPA range will be, once the 150 (+ ?) mile EPA range of the 2018 "40 kWh" LEAF is revealed, perhaps in just a few days from now at San Diego.

I distinctly remember that slide ...

Perhaps you misunderstood my point.

We do not know the EPA range of the "40 kWh" LEAF yet, just that Nissan has said (as I interpret the various statements) that it will be at least 150 miles. If the range is only 150 miles, then either the available capacity of the "40 kWh" pack, or the efficiency is lower than what I would expect.
Guess the Monroney contest: Tesla 3 and LEAF 2 efficiency ratings

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24340&start=10

I think it is very unlikely that Nissan will do what Tesla did with the model 3, intentionally understate the EPA range.

The EPA test results will eventually be posted and found by searching below, but we may get 2018 efficiency/ range info earlier from the first photo of the Monroney (window) sticker.

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/pubsearc ... ubmodule=1

Following this experience, I doubt we will know what "225+" miles range in the slide means in EPA range until shortly before the 2019 LEAF is released.
Last edited by edatoakrun on Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
no condition is permanent

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12965
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Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:37 am

cwerdna wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:https://pushevs.com/2017/12/29/nissan-s ... mpetition/

The slide is claimed to be from Nissan, and certainly looks plausible.

The slide was the same one shown and a pic taken of at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... ater&ifg=1. I was at the same EVent (at Nissan's Sunnyvale research office) as the person (Steve) who posted that pic. The slide was put up by Brian, a Nissan North America marketing guy who flew in from NNA HQ in TN.

I spoke to both Steve and Brian at that EVent which was in Sept 2017, right before the Cupertino EVent that weekend. It seems that since then, I've seen some slight variants of that slide shown by other Nissan corporate reps at other EVents elsewhere in the US.

Example: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... ater&ifg=1 posted in Oct 2017 which I believe was at another EVent in the Seattle area. The price adjustment/model grade slide from that EVent looked the same as the Sunnyvale EVent.


I think they are still tweaking which is a good thing. I am VERY pleased to see a supposed 64 kwh pack which I hope means 60 kwh usable with a better buffer. With TMS, the lower end will have to be bigger to prevent damage and allow TMS to run. I still think TMS is overblown and wish it was an option. I can live without it. ;)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12965
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Leaf Number: 314199
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Contact: Website

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:41 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
Jedlacks wrote:So, do I drive this until I need a new pack, or get the 18 Leaf, or get hampered with the long charging of the Bolt at any DCQC, or do I wait until '19? Add to this the idea of picking up a used '18 for a bargain...


I'm not sure what you're saying about the Bolt here. You say it is "hampered" with long charging in the same sentence as talking about the 18 Leaf. How is it "hampered"? The Bolt charges at up to 55kW, assuming there is at least 160A available. According to Nissan, the '18 Leaf charges at up to 50kW. Put another way, Nissan claims 88 miles in 30 minutes while GM claims 90 miles in 30 minutes. That sounds like the same to me...


Been stuck behind Bolts A LOT and I can EASILY beat them in a charging race and this is at EVGO stations running as much as 132 amps (My LEAF only does 125 max)
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BrockWI
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:45 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:With TMS, the lower end will have to be bigger to prevent damage and allow TMS to run. I still think TMS is overblown and wish it was an option. I can live without it. ;)

I just hope it is somewhat user selectable or some way to control it. IRRC can't Tesla adjust theirs? Basically widen the range or at least the lower end as to when it warms the battery up? Sometimes it would be nice to warm it up (like when plugged in) but not keep it warm all day while sitting at work.
3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - 8 L16's
4 ton GSHP
2003 VW TDI 170k miles - 52 mpg lifetime
evse level 2 - Clipper Creek HSC-40
2013 S model with QC package Mar of 2013
@60k miles - 61.72Ahr - 94 SOH - 95.61 Hx - 268 GID

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12965
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Leaf Number: 314199
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:47 am

The reveal video is on you tube is it not? I thought they posted the same "225" on that as well?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1809
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:52 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:
Jedlacks wrote:So, do I drive this until I need a new pack, or get the 18 Leaf, or get hampered with the long charging of the Bolt at any DCQC, or do I wait until '19? Add to this the idea of picking up a used '18 for a bargain...


I'm not sure what you're saying about the Bolt here. You say it is "hampered" with long charging in the same sentence as talking about the 18 Leaf. How is it "hampered"? The Bolt charges at up to 55kW, assuming there is at least 160A available. According to Nissan, the '18 Leaf charges at up to 50kW. Put another way, Nissan claims 88 miles in 30 minutes while GM claims 90 miles in 30 minutes. That sounds like the same to me...


Been stuck behind Bolts A LOT and I can EASILY beat them in a charging race and this is at EVGO stations running as much as 132 amps (My LEAF only does 125 max)


Charging race to what? A % SoC or in absolute energy added?

Suppose you and I were to have identical water fountains. We are racing to fill up a cup with water. I have a 4 oz dixie cup and you have a 22oz tumbler. Who is going to win this race?

The Bolt's sweet spot for charging is starting at about 10% and going to about 55%. That's adding 45% of 60kWh which is 27kWh. This can be done in roughly half an hour with a proper DCQC (at least 160A). Trust me, I would love to only charge my Bolt for 30 minutes at a time and be on my way. Until there are many more DCQCs, and which provide more than 100A, it's just not an option to me. While you may be charging your Leaf to make it 50 miles home, I am charging my bolt to make it 120 miles to the next DCQC location on my trip. So bear with me. In the end, we are both on the same side here.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12965
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
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Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:56 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:
I'm not sure what you're saying about the Bolt here. You say it is "hampered" with long charging in the same sentence as talking about the 18 Leaf. How is it "hampered"? The Bolt charges at up to 55kW, assuming there is at least 160A available. According to Nissan, the '18 Leaf charges at up to 50kW. Put another way, Nissan claims 88 miles in 30 minutes while GM claims 90 miles in 30 minutes. That sounds like the same to me...


Been stuck behind Bolts A LOT and I can EASILY beat them in a charging race and this is at EVGO stations running as much as 132 amps (My LEAF only does 125 max)


Charging race to what? A % SoC or in absolute energy added?

Suppose you and I were to have identical water fountains. We are racing to fill up a cup with water. I have a 4 oz dixie cup and you have a 22oz tumbler. Who is going to win this race?

The Bolt's sweet spot for charging is starting at about 10% and going to about 55%. That's adding 45% of 60kWh which is 27kWh. This can be done in roughly half an hour with a proper DCQC (at least 160A). Trust me, I would love to only charge my Bolt for 30 minutes at a time and be on my way. Until there are many more DCQCs, and which provide more than 100A, it's just not an option to me. While you may be charging your Leaf to make it 50 miles home, I am charging my bolt to make it 120 miles to the next DCQC location on my trip. So bear with me. In the end, we are both on the same side here.


So you are saying one of two things;

If the trip is short enough AKA a few miles beyond the LEAF range, you win

or

Eventually (when they exist) you will win due to faster charging.


Otherwise, its already been proven the Bolt loses in a race.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 5775 miles, 488 GIDs, 38 kwh 113.37 Ahr available, SOH 98.21, Hx 115.75
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1809
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:49 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Been stuck behind Bolts A LOT and I can EASILY beat them in a charging race and this is at EVGO stations running as much as 132 amps (My LEAF only does 125 max)


Charging race to what? A % SoC or in absolute energy added?

Suppose you and I were to have identical water fountains. We are racing to fill up a cup with water. I have a 4 oz dixie cup and you have a 22oz tumbler. Who is going to win this race?

The Bolt's sweet spot for charging is starting at about 10% and going to about 55%. That's adding 45% of 60kWh which is 27kWh. This can be done in roughly half an hour with a proper DCQC (at least 160A). Trust me, I would love to only charge my Bolt for 30 minutes at a time and be on my way. Until there are many more DCQCs, and which provide more than 100A, it's just not an option to me. While you may be charging your Leaf to make it 50 miles home, I am charging my bolt to make it 120 miles to the next DCQC location on my trip. So bear with me. In the end, we are both on the same side here.


So you are saying one of two things;

If the trip is short enough AKA a few miles beyond the LEAF range, you win

or

Eventually (when they exist) you will win due to faster charging.


Otherwise, its already been proven the Bolt loses in a race.


Dave, you did not answer my question, only reasserted your baseless conclusion.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

Evoforce
Posts: 783
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:34 pm

Anyone who talks of the Leaf winning against a Bolt is delusional with all things considered. The thermal battery management of Bolt far outshines the NO thermal management of Leaf at this time and maybe well into the future. We can only hope that Nissan will fix this for 2019. The loss of value of our Leafs is a glaring reflection of this battery shortcoming. I believe the Bolt will have very good resale value compared to the Leaf until or unless Nissan repairs its battery reputation.
Last edited by Evoforce on Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

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