MSELeaf
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:32 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Aug 2014
Leaf Number: 339750
Location: College Park, MD

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:58 am

Nubo wrote:
MSELeaf wrote:Couldn't have said it better myself. This level of complacency from Nissan (and poor value for the given range: http://insideevs.com/wp-content/uploads ... /111-5.png) is exactly why I am now shopping around for a Bolt. Surprisingly, the lease numbers are almost identical to what I am paying now for my 2014 LEAF lease! I absolutely love my LEAF and how forward-thinking it has been for all these years, so it makes me sad that it is now being neglected like this in terms of value.


That value calculation is useful but not necessarily compelling. Dollars per mile of range is only meaningful if you need to consume that much range. Sort of like buying a 5-gallon drum of mayonnaise at Costco. Sure, it's a hell of a deal -- if you NEED that much mayonnaise. If you're only going to use a quart before it goes bad, then it's a big waste of money.


I agree that makes perfect sense. I guess I'm just a bit bitter that I waited over a year (2 lease extensions) and the new LEAF really doesn't seem all that "new". Yes it looks better and has more supplementary features, but I don't feel enough effort was put in to improve the "guts" of the vehicle to really justify the cost relative to the perceived value of a 1st gen LEAF.

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:10 am

MSELeaf wrote:[quote="Nubo]That value calculation is useful but not necessarily compelling. Dollars per mile of range is only meaningful if you need to consume that much range. Sort of like buying a 5-gallon drum of mayonnaise at Costco. Sure, it's a hell of a deal -- if you NEED that much mayonnaise. If you're only going to use a quart before it goes bad, then it's a big waste of money.[/quote]

I agree that makes perfect sense. I guess I'm just a bit bitter that I waited over a year (2 lease extensions) and the new LEAF really doesn't seem all that "new". Yes it looks better and has more supplementary features, but I don't feel enough effort was put in to improve the "guts" of the vehicle to really justify the cost relative to the perceived value of a 1st gen LEAF.[/quote]


It all centers around expectations I suppose. On the one hand you have a vehicle that significantly increases range over its predecessor, while offering more advanced driving tech, and at a lower price point. That would seem amazing in and of itself.

On the other hand, it seems Tesla have increased the expectations of what EVs can do; bringing a vehicle to market with at least some plausible price overlap with Nissan.

It's all good, I think. There's going to be some real competition going on. Not only will that lead to further improvements, but will spark public interest. "Chevy guy VS Ford guy" arguments become "Nissan guy VS Tesla guy" ones! This is really good news! :)
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

phr00t
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:29 am
Delivery Date: 23 Mar 2017

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:13 am

Nubo wrote:
MSELeaf wrote:[quote="Nubo]That value calculation is useful but not necessarily compelling. Dollars per mile of range is only meaningful if you need to consume that much range. Sort of like buying a 5-gallon drum of mayonnaise at Costco. Sure, it's a hell of a deal -- if you NEED that much mayonnaise. If you're only going to use a quart before it goes bad, then it's a big waste of money.[/quote]

I agree that makes perfect sense. I guess I'm just a bit bitter that I waited over a year (2 lease extensions) and the new LEAF really doesn't seem all that "new". Yes it looks better and has more supplementary features, but I don't feel enough effort was put in to improve the "guts" of the vehicle to really justify the cost relative to the perceived value of a 1st gen LEAF.[/quote][/quote]

It all centers around expectations I suppose. On the one hand you have a vehicle that significantly increases range over its predecessor, while offering more advanced driving tech, and at a lower price point. That would seem amazing in and of itself.

On the other hand, it seems Tesla have increased the expectations of what EVs can do; bringing a vehicle to market with at least some plausible price overlap with Nissan.

It's all good, I think. There's going to be some real competition going on. Not only will that lead to further improvements, but will spark public interest. "Chevy guy VS Ford guy" arguments become "Nissan guy VS Tesla guy" ones! This is really good news! :)[/quote]


I think we all can agree with that.

I want more competition, though. I know these EV "leaders" can do better. EVs need faster adoption & EV leaders can't be dragging their feet.

MSELeaf
Posts: 27
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 7:32 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Aug 2014
Leaf Number: 339750
Location: College Park, MD

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:30 am

Nubo wrote:
MSELeaf wrote:[quote="Nubo]That value calculation is useful but not necessarily compelling. Dollars per mile of range is only meaningful if you need to consume that much range. Sort of like buying a 5-gallon drum of mayonnaise at Costco. Sure, it's a hell of a deal -- if you NEED that much mayonnaise. If you're only going to use a quart before it goes bad, then it's a big waste of money.[/quote]

I agree that makes perfect sense. I guess I'm just a bit bitter that I waited over a year (2 lease extensions) and the new LEAF really doesn't seem all that "new". Yes it looks better and has more supplementary features, but I don't feel enough effort was put in to improve the "guts" of the vehicle to really justify the cost relative to the perceived value of a 1st gen LEAF.[/quote][/quote]

It all centers around expectations I suppose. On the one hand you have a vehicle that significantly increases range over its predecessor, while offering more advanced driving tech, and at a lower price point. That would seem amazing in and of itself.

On the other hand, it seems Tesla have increased the expectations of what EVs can do; bringing a vehicle to market with at least some plausible price overlap with Nissan.

It's all good, I think. There's going to be some real competition going on. Not only will that lead to further improvements, but will spark public interest. "Chevy guy VS Ford guy" arguments become "Nissan guy VS Tesla guy" ones! This is really good news! :)[/quote][/quote][/quote]


True, it does all center around expectations. I definitely don't fall in the majority of LEAF drivers since I have it as my only car for all trips. From this viewpoint, my primary expectation was a car with the best cost/range under $35K. If the new LEAF was $5K cheaper, I would have been content with the value from the range standpoint that it offered.

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:13 am

finman100 wrote:... hobbled describes the current Nissan TMS...or lack of one. See you in 3 years, let's see which EVs in the hotter climates are doing...

I happen to already own a Gen one LEAF that has already been through seven hot Summers, and been driven close to 9k miles each year, and a lot more miles in Summer, than the rest of the year.

Actual capacity loss is now ~20%, down from (~23 kWh total on) delivery.

My pack capacity loss might be a few percent lower today with liquid cooling, but that is not enough of a benefit to outweigh the high costs in price and efficiency.

The average error in my LEAF LBC's over-report of capacity loss as measured from the grid presently seems to be ~11.5%, but ~the same LBC error shows up only much more erratically from range/capacity tests, such as in the ~17% under-report error in kWh use shown in the LBC report from this 104.2 mile trip last week:

100 Mile Club...

Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:59 pm

It was looking like my LEAF's OE battery's streak of over-100-mile trips using only capacity above the VLBW was probably over, but I picked up # thirty-three last week.

kWh use reports, ranked from LEAST to most credible:

8/29/17

LBC report: 12 kWh used, 104.2 miles (accurate odometer) 8.7 m/kWh!!!Why oh why does anyone take LBC data seriously?

8.1 m/kWh shown on the Nav screen.

Carwings/Nissan connect: 12.9 kWh 101.7 miles (~2.5% under-report) 7.9 m/kWh (identical to dash m/kWh display) .

Actual: 14.4 kWh (est.) 104.2 miles (odometer)~7.3 m/kWh (est.)

Not too bad, for a LEAF pack with ~55k miles, after seven North Valley hot Summers, and due to lose capacity bar # nine, any day now...

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7022&start=870
no condition is permanent

phr00t
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:29 am
Delivery Date: 23 Mar 2017

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:58 am

edatoakrun wrote:
finman100 wrote:My pack capacity loss might be a few percent lower today with liquid cooling, but that is not enough of a benefit to outweigh the high costs in price and efficiency.


Huh? The Model 3 & Bolt, with their liquid cooling, are both more efficient than the first generation Leaf. The 2018 eGolf with air cooling & a lighter weight is just as efficient as the Bolt.

The Bolt & Model 3 cost less per mile of range & less per battery kWh.

Not sure where you are getting these claims from, but liquid cooling certainly isn't significantly less efficient or more expensive.

SageBrush
Posts: 2856
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:05 pm

edatoakrun wrote:I happen to already own a Gen one LEAF that has already been through seven hot Summers, and been driven close to 9k miles each year, and a lot more miles in Summer, than the rest of the year.

You happen to live in an area with a average annual temperature of 62.4F

http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/sh ... s/usca1045
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:54 pm

Off -topic reply:

SageBrush wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:I happen to already own a Gen one LEAF that has already been through seven hot Summers, and been driven close to 9k miles each year, and a lot more miles in Summer, than the rest of the year.

You happen to live in an area with a average annual temperature of 62.4F
http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/sh ... s/usca1045

Which is an essentially meaningless statistic regarding pack life, as only Summer ambient temperatures are high enough in most of the USA (including Shasta County) to increase pack temperatures enough to have significant effects in increasing capacity loss.

I wish it weren't so damn cold here in the Winter. That's when my LEAF has real problems with capacity and range loss.

But yes, annual average for the Shasta County (my LEAF's average ambient temperature could be one to two F higher than County average) is nearly 15 F cooler than the 77.15 F average, for Death Valley.

http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/de ... s/usca0286

So, your point is?
no condition is permanent

desiv
Posts: 594
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 1:10 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2015
Leaf Number: 018850
Location: Lincoln City, Oregon

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:11 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Which is an essentially meaningless statistic regarding pack life,

Yeah, I thought that was kind of silly..
I spent some time in Redding for a while in Shasta County, and there were some of the hottest days I'd ever spent... (I grew up in Los Angeles)
Quick google shows:
10 All-Time Hottest Weather Temperature Days in Redding
July 20, 1988 - 118 degrees
June 25, 2006 - 117 degrees
July 29, 2003 - 116 degrees
September 3, 1988 - 116 degrees
July 19, 1988 - 116 degrees
July 10, 2002 - 115 degrees
July 12, 1999 - 115 degrees
July 3, 1991 - 115 degrees
August 6, 1990 - 115 degrees
September 4, 1988 - 115 degrees

It gets plenty hot enough in places in Shasta County to bother the batteries...

desiv
2012 Leaf SL - Silver (gone - traded in)
2017 Bolt LT - Red

2011RedLeaf
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:49 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 3999

Re: Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:01 pm

"Wow - you have freeways that go at 7-75 mph in rush hour traffic ? "

Here the freeway quickly goes 75-7 mph in rush hour traffic.

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