smkettner
Posts: 7190
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:09 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
smkettner wrote:No way would I drive or recommend a Nissan until the battery consistently holds 85%+ capacity at 100K miles.
That's not very reasonable because it comes close to violating what is now known about the physics of lithium batteries. 70 or 75+% at 100k miles would be reasonable.
Without stating pack size, you cannot make such a statement. a 200 Kwh pack would easily exceed those parameters in a mere 100,000 miles.

With a pack size of 60 kwh, now it becomes a difference between BMS (of which we know nothing) and Chemistry (of which we know nothing)

An ultraconservative BMS like the 40 kwh pack with better chemistry (will likely increase costs) combined with TMS and the pack should easily beat that 85% number.
I read the threads on battery life. Pathetic at best. Need better chemistry and TMS. Nissan really needs to turn this around as they are putting a real black mark on EV adoption.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
I-Pace on order for end of 2018 delivery

WetEV
Posts: 2322
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:35 pm

johnlocke wrote:The simple answer is that the battery should last the life of the car.


Henry Ford's answer. Yet I'm not sure that's the right answer. Are you, and why?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

Kieran973
Posts: 37
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Jun 2018

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:37 pm

So supposedly the 60 kWh, 225 mile version will be a more expensive (SL?) version. But is there any information yet on the "regular" 2019, the 40 kWh, 150 mile S and SV versions?

What I'm particularly wondering is whether the 2019 S and SV trims will have the LG Chem battery, TMS, and/or the 100 kW fast charging. My understanding is that the 2018 S and SV were priced more or less the same as the 2017 S and SV, albeit with 50% more range. So it wouldn't be out of the question that the 2019 S and SV could start at 29K and 32K respectively, but each with a much better LG Chem battery, and TMS, and the 100 kW fast charging. If the 2019 SV with All-Weather was 32K, and there were still healthy dealer discounts and tax breaks, and it had an LG Chem battery that was good for 150 miles now and 150 miles 10 years from now, and you could quick charge it in half the time as the 2018, well then I actually think that would be a better deal than a 225 mile version for 40K.

Or will the S and SV still just have the same crap battery?

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13212
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:51 am

Kieran973 wrote:So supposedly the 60 kWh, 225 mile version will be a more expensive (SL?) version. But is there any information yet on the "regular" 2019, the 40 kWh, 150 mile S and SV versions?

What I'm particularly wondering is whether the 2019 S and SV trims will have the LG Chem battery, TMS, and/or the 100 kW fast charging. My understanding is that the 2018 S and SV were priced more or less the same as the 2017 S and SV, albeit with 50% more range. So it wouldn't be out of the question that the 2019 S and SV could start at 29K and 32K respectively, but each with a much better LG Chem battery, and TMS, and the 100 kW fast charging. If the 2019 SV with All-Weather was 32K, and there were still healthy dealer discounts and tax breaks, and it had an LG Chem battery that was good for 150 miles now and 150 miles 10 years from now, and you could quick charge it in half the time as the 2018, well then I actually think that would be a better deal than a 225 mile version for 40K.

Or will the S and SV still just have the same crap battery?


Are you forgetting Nissan still has a battery company? What confirmation have we gotten that LG was doing the 60 kwh pack? I do know there was a lot of speculation on that since negotiations between the two companies especially when Renault was sourcing their packs from LG but since that is no more, I have to say.... I we might be in for a big surprise.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2011RedLeaf
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:49 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 3999

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:15 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Kieran973 wrote:So supposedly the 60 kWh, 225 mile version will be a more expensive (SL?) version. But is there any information yet on the "regular" 2019, the 40 kWh, 150 mile S and SV versions?

What I'm particularly wondering is whether the 2019 S and SV trims will have the LG Chem battery, TMS, and/or the 100 kW fast charging. My understanding is that the 2018 S and SV were priced more or less the same as the 2017 S and SV, albeit with 50% more range. So it wouldn't be out of the question that the 2019 S and SV could start at 29K and 32K respectively, but each with a much better LG Chem battery, and TMS, and the 100 kW fast charging. If the 2019 SV with All-Weather was 32K, and there were still healthy dealer discounts and tax breaks, and it had an LG Chem battery that was good for 150 miles now and 150 miles 10 years from now, and you could quick charge it in half the time as the 2018, well then I actually think that would be a better deal than a 225 mile version for 40K.

Or will the S and SV still just have the same crap battery?


Are you forgetting Nissan still has a battery company? What confirmation have we gotten that LG was doing the 60 kwh pack? I do know there was a lot of speculation on that since negotiations between the two companies especially when Renault was sourcing their packs from LG but since that is no more, I have to say.... I we might be in for a big surprise.


It will be fascinating to see how sales go if there isn't a great deal of explaining about AESC batteries. Just as I have been watching Dave's blog about 40 kWh battery deterioration, I would have to watch the performance of AESC 60s for a year or two before getting suckered again. I have been looking at other MY... sites - I haven't found concern about battery deterioration or a Leaf Spy equivalent on the ChevyBolt site or the i3 site (but too many drive trains shutting down while accelerating onto the freeway for my comfort).

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13212
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:28 am

2011RedLeaf wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Kieran973 wrote:So supposedly the 60 kWh, 225 mile version will be a more expensive (SL?) version. But is there any information yet on the "regular" 2019, the 40 kWh, 150 mile S and SV versions?

What I'm particularly wondering is whether the 2019 S and SV trims will have the LG Chem battery, TMS, and/or the 100 kW fast charging. My understanding is that the 2018 S and SV were priced more or less the same as the 2017 S and SV, albeit with 50% more range. So it wouldn't be out of the question that the 2019 S and SV could start at 29K and 32K respectively, but each with a much better LG Chem battery, and TMS, and the 100 kW fast charging. If the 2019 SV with All-Weather was 32K, and there were still healthy dealer discounts and tax breaks, and it had an LG Chem battery that was good for 150 miles now and 150 miles 10 years from now, and you could quick charge it in half the time as the 2018, well then I actually think that would be a better deal than a 225 mile version for 40K.

Or will the S and SV still just have the same crap battery?


Are you forgetting Nissan still has a battery company? What confirmation have we gotten that LG was doing the 60 kwh pack? I do know there was a lot of speculation on that since negotiations between the two companies especially when Renault was sourcing their packs from LG but since that is no more, I have to say.... I we might be in for a big surprise.


It will be fascinating to see how sales go if there isn't a great deal of explaining about AESC batteries. Just as I have been watching Dave's blog about 40 kWh battery deterioration, I would have to watch the performance of AESC 60s for a year or two before getting suckered again. I have been looking at other MY... sites - I haven't found concern about battery deterioration or a Leaf Spy equivalent on the ChevyBolt site or the i3 site (but too many drive trains shutting down while accelerating onto the freeway for my comfort).


Well, I think TMS will go a long way towards ensuring a more consistent (and faster) QC experience on roadtrips (and for people in Phoenix for everyday drving :? ) but ASC still has the issue of using less than desirable battery chemistry.

Now, they have always contended they were erring on the side of safety and maybe the significantly lower incidence of LEAF fires bears that out. I am "hoping" they simply don't decide that TMS is enough without continuing to tweak the chemistry to get more cycles from it.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 91
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:36 pm

I think we're getting close to the 60kWh Leaf. My wife has recently decided that she's ready to switch to an EV, so this morning I started playing around on the Leaf configurator and it's been thoroughly overhauled. Aside from the visual differences, there are now five grades instead of three: S, X, G, 100,000th Leaf Commemorative, and Nismo. Motor type and battery type are now displayed underneath the grade. At the moment, all five show the EM57 motor and 40kWh battery, but I think that was made to accommodate the new motor and battery that is expected for the 2019 model year. Maybe we'll hear something official soon.

It also looks like the Nismo has a different rear suspension and sportier tires, but isn't any quicker than other models. It does say that the throttle response is more aggressive.

tattoogunman
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:17 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2016
Location: Plano, Texas

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Aug 04, 2018 6:02 pm

smkettner wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: That's not very reasonable because it comes close to violating what is now known about the physics of lithium batteries. 70 or 75+% at 100k miles would be reasonable.
Without stating pack size, you cannot make such a statement. a 200 Kwh pack would easily exceed those parameters in a mere 100,000 miles.

With a pack size of 60 kwh, now it becomes a difference between BMS (of which we know nothing) and Chemistry (of which we know nothing)

An ultraconservative BMS like the 40 kwh pack with better chemistry (will likely increase costs) combined with TMS and the pack should easily beat that 85% number.
I read the threads on battery life. Pathetic at best. Need better chemistry and TMS. Nissan really needs to turn this around as they are putting a real black mark on EV adoption.


Nissan has sold more electric cars than any other auto maker to date, so I'm not so sure about that.

Evoforce
Posts: 828
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:58 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Feb 2015
Location: Fountain Hills Arizona

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:06 pm

tattoogunman wrote:
smkettner wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Without stating pack size, you cannot make such a statement. a 200 Kwh pack would easily exceed those parameters in a mere 100,000 miles.

With a pack size of 60 kwh, now it becomes a difference between BMS (of which we know nothing) and Chemistry (of which we know nothing)

An ultraconservative BMS like the 40 kwh pack with better chemistry (will likely increase costs) combined with TMS and the pack should easily beat that 85% number.
I read the threads on battery life. Pathetic at best. Need better chemistry and TMS. Nissan really needs to turn this around as they are putting a real black mark on EV adoption.


Nissan has sold more electric cars than any other auto maker to date, so I'm not so sure about that.


There are some born every day, and I bought 2 myself. Their only saving grace will be to provide a better battery. Too many of us duped in the past and including right up to the present. Some of us try to get the word out and many hear it, and many don't. They will be forced to update because of more competition or they will fade away. So far, it looks like the 2019 might be their (catch up) car. 2018 is a fall two steps back...
*2011 Leaf 1 bought 2/28/15 @ 28,000ish mi 10 bar (8 bars @ 11/25/15 @ 37,453 ) (New lizard @ 39,275 mi @ 1/20/2016) Now 52,166 mi.
*Tesla Model S 61,000 mi
*2011 Leaf 2 bought 4/28/15 @ 24,000ish mi 12 bar (new lizard Dec. 2014 @ 22,273 mi) Now 35,485 mi

SageBrush
Posts: 2792
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Sat Aug 04, 2018 7:40 pm

tattoogunman wrote:Nissan has sold more electric cars than any other auto maker to date, so I'm not so sure about that.

To what date ?

Worldwide, LEAF sales peaked in 2014 and have been 40k - 50k a year through 2017. I'm not sure about 2018. All told, 350k sounds ballpark.
Nowadays Tesla sells about 30k a *month* and is ramping up very quickly. In June Tesla sold its 200,000th in the US. I have read that the US accounts for ~ 1/2 of sales.

So I'll guess that Nissan is 2nd to Tesla and falling further behind by the day as Tesla ramps and LEAF sales fall off a cliff everywhere but Europe, the latter in grave risk once Tesla Model 3 is available in that market. I won't be at all surprised to read that worldwide LEAF sales are plateauing at 2k a month by the end of the year.

Does that sound like a has been to you ? It sure does to me.
Can Nissan jump back in to the ring of front runners with a model that does not suck ? Sure, but it will probably require major R&D to the car, to the battery chemistry, and massive investment in battery production. The only message I heard coming out of Nissan corporate recently is that they want to play in the not too expensive but crap EV arena. That sounds consistent with 2,000 cars a month sales worldwide.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
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2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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