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OrientExpress
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 7:31 am

scottf200 wrote:So, OrientExpress , you are confirming that 22 kW is expected on the 40 kWh LEAF when DCFC charging


No, I'm not, but what I am saying is that since the dawn of DCFC that throttling the charge rate as the battery fills up has been the normal way that cars charge.

My 2014 LEAF starts at 45kW, but by the time its battery is almost full it can drop down to 8kW. It is unclear what the ruckus is since backing off on the charge rate is how DCFC works.
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scottf200
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:23 am

OrientExpress wrote:
scottf200 wrote:So, OrientExpress , you are confirming that 22 kW is expected on the 40 kWh LEAF when DCFC charging

No, I'm not, but what I am saying is that since the dawn of DCFC that throttling the charge rate as the battery fills up has been the normal way that cars charge.
My 2014 LEAF starts at 45kW, but by the time its battery is almost full it can drop down to 8kW. It is unclear what the ruckus is since backing off on the charge rate is how DCFC works.

I think there is some confusion on the ruckus as I've seen it explained.

1) It is not whether a DCFC starts high and ends up low on a single occasional DCFC charge.
2) It is that after a couple DCFCs the *starting* (beginning) kW is very low ... 22 kW. This is not 'fast' charging and it is what people are complaining about while doing moderate traveling. That is a several hour charge.
100K EV miles and 80% EV usage
Volt = 53+ mile BEV up to 100 MPH, then 40 MPG hybrid with a 9 gal gas tank
'17 Tesla Model X 100D 'used'| RIP '16 P90DL Sig | 2011 Volt kid2 | 2016 for wife | 2012 kid1

SageBrush
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:31 am

scottf200 wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:
scottf200 wrote:So, OrientExpress , you are confirming that 22 kW is expected on the 40 kWh LEAF when DCFC charging

No, I'm not, but what I am saying is that since the dawn of DCFC that throttling the charge rate as the battery fills up has been the normal way that cars charge.
My 2014 LEAF starts at 45kW, but by the time its battery is almost full it can drop down to 8kW. It is unclear what the ruckus is since backing off on the charge rate is how DCFC works.

I think there is some confusion on the ruckus as I've seen it explained.

1) It is not whether a DCFC starts high and ends up low on a single occasional DCFC charge.
2) It is that after a couple DCFCs the *starting* (beginning) kW is very low ... 22 kW. This is not 'fast' charging and it is what people are complaining about while doing moderate traveling. That is a several hour charge.

I don't think people are going to have to want serial QC in a day to see the throttling. Just wait until the summer.

Nissan is adding to the charger vocabulary.
Now we have "enhanced L2" speeds at the QC :lol:

My estimate for a 20 - 80% charge is about 15 kW average in the 40 kWh LEAF in the summer. At a QC that charges 25 cents a minute, that works out to $1 a kWh. Nissan has just royally screwed the CCS/ChadeMo infrastructure roll-out.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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OrientExpress
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:47 am

scottf200 wrote:1) It is not whether a DCFC starts high and ends up low on a single occasional DCFC charge.
2) It is that after a couple DCFCs the *starting* (beginning) kW is very low ... 22 kW. This is not 'fast' charging and it is what people are complaining about while doing moderate traveling. That is a several hour charge.


I'm sure if it turns out to be a substantiated issue, it will be addressed.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
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Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
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Delivery May 23 2014
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Nubo
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:56 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
scottf200 wrote:1) It is not whether a DCFC starts high and ends up low on a single occasional DCFC charge.
2) It is that after a couple DCFCs the *starting* (beginning) kW is very low ... 22 kW. This is not 'fast' charging and it is what people are complaining about while doing moderate traveling. That is a several hour charge.


I'm sure if it turns out to be a substantiated issue, it will be addressed.


Not so sure. I suspect 2018 owners will be "Phoenixed" with some blend of "you're using it wrong" and "that's normal" . The AESC battery tech has been Nissan's albatross since the LEAF introduction and this has the same smell. I'm pinning my hopes on 2019.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:09 pm

So hypothetically let's say that the '18 LEAF's BMS has conservation of capacity as its top priority, so that the car will only allow one full throttle QC per 12 hours or so. The idea being to keep the battery cool and extend its life. The upside is that the battery's life is extended, but the downside is that for someone doing a long distance trip the time in recharge is longer. I would suspect that those long distance recharge events will in the minority of use cases for the car, as most people are still focused on commuting.

If conservative throttling was the case, should there be an over-ride to that overly conservative quick charging profile that lets an owner make his car recharge at it's maximum capability? What would be worse, taking more time for recharging for those that are road tripping, or allow full capacity quick charges and risk accelerated degradation? Should there be a user configurable profile that allows toggling conservative quick charge and a quick Quick Charge? How would that effect warranty, etc.?

Now I'm just asking these questions to stimulate discussion, I have no hidden agenda and I don't represent anyone in asking these questions, I'm just curious. Personally for my use profile with an '18 LEAF, it does not matter if it throttles its quick charge rate or not.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 4:52 pm

This appears to be a no win situation for those who planned on using the car for longer trips. Override the BMS throttling and you get excessive pack heat that will reduce capacity. Leave things as is and the car can't practically be used for trips of more than 230 miles or so - apparently not even in Winter. Equally (or even more) disturbing is the underlying implication that this pack doesn't tolerate heat any better than the 30kwh pack, and possibly even less.

The obvious band-aid is for Nissan to explain this, and market the car as a 200 mile commuter, using QC occasionally, once. But Nissan has never taken the forthright approach (possibly except in 2013) so it's going to become a slow motion train wreck for them, and for those who buy (especially) or lease a 2018 Leaf to take trips of more than 200 miles. I too don't fit the category that will suffer here, but I did intend to pay a high lease payment only because I intended to buy the car. The one thing that Nissan can possibly be expected to do is to unlock the 33% residual, and offer cheap leases with higher residuals, as in 2013. If they don't then we'd be better off leasing a Bolt.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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OrientExpress
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:04 pm

Conservative charging levels in no way affect the practically of long distance trips in a BEV over another BEV, they just take a little longer. There are other things at this time that make long distance travel in ANY BEV impractical today. That’s why today BEVs are a 90-95% solution. There is no shame in using a PHEV or ICE car for long distance travel. It’s the right tool for the job.

When BEVs can achieve parity with ICE or PHEV vehicles and pass the 85/400/30 test, then a BEV could be considered a 100% solution. Until then it will always be a compromise.
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Prior LEAF:
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ookoshi
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:47 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:The obvious band-aid is for Nissan to explain this, and market the car as a 200 mile commuter, using QC occasionally, once. But Nissan has never taken the forthright approach (possibly except in 2013) so it's going to become a slow motion train wreck for them, and for those who buy (especially) or lease a 2018 Leaf to take trips of more than 200 miles. I too don't fit the category that will suffer here, but I did intend to pay a high lease payment only because I intended to buy the car. The one thing that Nissan can possibly be expected to do is to unlock the 33% residual, and offer cheap leases with higher residuals, as in 2013. If they don't then we'd be better off leasing a Bolt.


To be fair, for many people, the choice between a Leaf and Bolt is about more than the battery capacity and range. You can't just treat a Leaf and a Bolt as if they are interchangeable and only look at the capacity and range. Frankly, when I was shopping for a car last month, I test drove the Bolt, and honestly, I preferred everything about the 2018 Leaf driving experience. The seats are more comfortable, and both the interior and exterior, imo, simply look better on the 2018 Leaf. I also like not having to start up Android Auto in order to use the navigation. Since the capacity and range of both cars met my driving needs, without the need for using QC in either vehicle, that difference doesn't outweigh all the other factors.

I mean, seriously, it's nice to discuss the differences in range, battery technology, etc. between the Leaf and all the other EVs out there, but let's not pretend that it's the only factor in making a decision to purchase an EV.
2014 to 2018 -> 2014 Leaf SL (leased, then purchased)
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Mon Mar 26, 2018 6:58 pm

To be fair, for many people, the choice between a Leaf and Bolt is about more than the battery capacity and range. You can't just treat a Leaf and a Bolt as if they are interchangeable and only look at the capacity and range. Frankly, when I was shopping for a car last month, I test drove the Bolt, and honestly, I preferred everything about the 2018 Leaf driving experience. The seats are more comfortable, and both the interior and exterior, imo, simply look better on the 2018 Leaf. I also like not having to start up Android Auto in order to use the navigation. Since the capacity and range of both cars met my driving needs, without the need for using QC in either vehicle, that difference doesn't outweigh all the other factors.


I too preferred the Leaf I drove to the Bolt. However, I'm not going to pay that much to lease a car that is likely to end up with capacity more like a slightly used 24kwh Leaf than a real 150 mile car. The battery in the Leaf is fine as spec'd, but if it's going to degrade like the 30kwh pack then the car becomes a comfortable lemon.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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