SageBrush
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:43 am

And you have only one example of a manufacturer with long-lived battery packs, and it just happens to have thermal management.


And GM, using ? NMC chemistry variant and LG cells
BWW, using Samsung (I think an NMC variant) cells

You might also consider Tesla and BMW technology expertise. You think they spend all that money for TMS R&D and production for naught ?
And the small matter of a veritable mountain of scientific inquiry showing that batteries are sensitive to temperature in myriad ways.
Then there is Nissan, with its non TMS battery that does so poorly in warm climates planning to add TMS to its next gen LEAF. Incidentally, what chemistry is in the 30 kWh LEAFs that are achieving new records in capacity loss ?

Sorry, but you are arguing a no-brainer. Reminds me of people who are not sure whether AGW climate change is real. I understand your *hope* that the battery does better than all the evidence suggests, but that does not change the odds being against you. WAY against you. Honestly, I apologize for for being such a Debbie Downer for you and others who have bought a 2018 LEAF. I'm not writing to spoil your day, but to warn others considering the car of the likely battery risk.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:02 pm

SageBrush wrote:
And you have only one example of a manufacturer with long-lived battery packs, and it just happens to have thermal management.


And GM, using ? NMC chemistry variant and LG cells
BWW, using Samsung (I think an NMC variant) cells

You might also consider Tesla and BMW technology expertise. You think they spend all that money for TMS R&D and production for naught ?
And the small matter of a veritable mountain of scientific inquiry showing that batteries are sensitive to temperature in myriad ways.
Then there is Nissan, with its non TMS battery that does so poorly in warm climates planning to add TMS to its next gen LEAF. Incidentally, what chemistry is in the 30 kWh LEAFs that are achieving new records in capacity loss ?

Sorry, but you are arguing a no-brainer. Reminds me of people who are not sure whether AGW climate change is real. I understand your *hope* that the battery does better than all the evidence suggests, but that does not change the odds being against you. WAY against you. Honestly, I apologize for for being such a Debbie Downer for you and others who have bought a 2018 LEAF. I'm not writing to spoil your day, but to warn others considering the car of the likely battery risk.


Well this is unproductive. You either didn't understand what I wrote or didn't bother to read it. Several of your questions and troll concerns were addressed in my last post and previous posts.

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RegGuheert
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:34 am

johnlocke wrote:Using the latest battery chemistry (NMC 811) you can get 1250 charge/discharge cycles (2.8 vdc to 4.2 vdc I.E. 100% discharge) at 45 degrees C. before you lose 20% capacity. And that's at 1C charge and discharge rates. Goes up to 1500 cycles for 20 degrees C. For a 60 KWH battery, that works out to 250K miles.
Can you please provide a link to a reference with this information?
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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OrientExpress
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Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:43 am

2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

SageBrush
Posts: 2920
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:48 am

Since I am thinking of buying a BMW i3, I looked into the cell details a little.
They are manufactured by Samsung, and I think packaged as 94 Ahr pouches. The label on a cell says 3200 cycles though of course I don't know test variables. Since BMW builds a pack with TMS and liquid cooling, I'm optimistic that these packs are going to last the lifetime of the car. Certainly anecdotal reports have been very good so far -- about 5% loss over ~ 4 years and up to 40k miles.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:37 am

OrientExpress wrote:https://pushevs.com/2017/09/08/lg-chem-will-introduce-ncm-811-battery-cells-evs-next-year/
Thanks, OrientExpress! I've seen that article, but I don't see anything about cycle life there. I'm wondering where that data came from. Do you know?

Also, I will note the following from the article you linked:
PushEVs wrote:Theoretically, the energy density of NCM 811 battery cells can reach 1.000 Wh/L,...
That's very impressive!
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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OrientExpress
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Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:14 am

SK had a press tour briefing last year announcing their new product.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:24 pm

OrientExpress wrote:SK had a press tour briefing last year announcing their new product.
O.K. Thanks!

So those numbers were from SK. Do we expect similar cycling capabilities from the LG Chem NCM811 product or is it too early to tell?
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

jonathanfields4ever
Posts: 93
Joined: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:55 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Feb 2018
Location: Kyoto

Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:14 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:https://pushevs.com/2017/09/08/lg-chem-will-introduce-ncm-811-battery-cells-evs-next-year/
Thanks, OrientExpress! I've seen that article, but I don't see anything about cycle life there. I'm wondering where that data came from. Do you know?

Also, I will note the following from the article you linked:
PushEVs wrote:Theoretically, the energy density of NCM 811 battery cells can reach 1.000 Wh/L,...
That's very impressive!


I can’t find a link right now, but I’ve seen similar numbers.

1250 to 1500 cycles for NMC without significant capacity fade even at 50 degrees Celsius. I believe it was in a Materials Today paper where they were talking about the strengths and weaknesses of various chemistries. The NCA batteries in a Tesla are apparently greater than 1500. LCO, LMO, and one more I can’t remember were less than 1000.

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Everything you might want to know about the '18 LEAF engineering

Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:47 am

jonathanfields4ever wrote:I can’t find a link right now, but I’ve seen similar numbers.

1250 to 1500 cycles for NMC without significant capacity fade even at 50 degrees Celsius. I believe it was in a Materials Today paper where they were talking about the strengths and weaknesses of various chemistries. The NCA batteries in a Tesla are apparently greater than 1500. LCO, LMO, and one more I can’t remember were less than 1000.
O.K., thanks! I found something on CleanTechnical:

Image

I could even argue that graph points at 1400 cycles at 45C to 80% for NMC811.

And, as the article indicates, Dr. Jeff Dahn shows NMC cells with the potential to achieve over 4000 cycles (at 25:00 in the video):



But I will note that Dr. Dahn's data is on NMC442, not 811.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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