Beleaf
Posts: 100
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 10:20 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Jul 2012
Location: Australia

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:12 pm

Not about a slow charger, but a slow charger would do the same slow problem.

The Nissan Leaf doesn't have active thermal management, and hasn't have it since the first Leaf was released. I ordered the Leaf before it was in production and cancelled the order because of the heat issues were already revealed in areas with warm temps like Arizona.

The other cars built by Renault/Nissan have battery thermal management. The Ioniq, the Teslas, the BMW i3 etc, are managing battery thermal management but Nissan is in denial. What a great shame! Pity for the Leaf owners and buyers. :evil:
Regards from Australia!

Silver Nissan Leaf Reserved: May 2012; Cancelled: July 2012.
Iconic Silver BMW i3 (BEV) Delivered Dec 4, 2014.

SageBrush
Posts: 2694
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:42 pm

simply wrote:Hi everyone, I have a 2018 SL that I’ve been quick charging from time to time from about 30% or so and I haven’t seen 50 kW on my dash. The most I have seen is 27kW. I’m not having good feelings that this car on a long trip is going to charge fully in 30 mins or even an hour. When I do charge I get 80A 400V but inside I’m reading 27kW.

Thoughts?

400 V * 80 A = 32 kW
So your question is where is the difference going.
Perhaps ~ 10% of the 32 kW is lost in AC -> DC
And your battery heating up is energy lost -- I presume resistance losses inside the battery

Net 27 kW energy stored sounds pretty ball-park.
If you are wondering why 32 kW from the meter, that is probably explained by the battery temperature. Nissan throttles the QC speed at temperatures much over 24 C
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

jjeff
Posts: 1699
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:58 am

Beleaf wrote:mps like Arizona.
.....
The other cars built by Renault/Nissan have battery thermal management. The Ioniq, the Teslas, the BMW i3 etc, are managing battery thermal management but Nissan is in denial. What a great shame! Pity for the Leaf owners and buyers. :evil:

Heck, even the small Nissan eNV-200 van has thermal management, why not in the Leaf :?
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

lorenfb
Posts: 1812
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:25 am

simply wrote:Hi everyone, I have a 2018 SL that I’ve been quick charging from time to time from about 30% or so and I haven’t seen 50 kW on my dash. The most I have seen is 27kW. I’m not having good feelings that this car on a long trip is going to charge fully in 30 mins or even an hour. When I do charge I get 80A 400V but inside I’m reading 27kW.

Thoughts?


SageBrush wrote:So your question is where is the difference going.
Perhaps ~ 10% of the 32 kW is lost in AC -> DC


Not a good guess. QC uses DC as its source voltage (no AC)!

SageBrush wrote:And your battery heating up is energy lost -- I presume resistance losses inside the battery


Yes, the other source of battery heat besides the ambient temp, a good guess.

SageBrush wrote:If you are wondering why 32 kW from the meter, that is probably explained by the battery temperature. Nissan throttles the QC speed at temperatures much over 24 C

Another good guess, i.e. reducing the charging current over time!

Note: Some on MNL post without an ad hominem!
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

SageBrush
Posts: 2694
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:39 am

lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Perhaps ~ 10% of the 32 kW is lost in AC -> DC

Not a good guess. QC uses DC as its source voltage (no AC)!
The metered electricity is AC. There **is** a conversion to DC, but it happens outside the car in a QC like ChaDemo

This is not a guess, it is just a rudimentary understanding of EV charging. Try getting to that level at least, before you try to play know-it-all.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

lorenfb
Posts: 1812
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:29 am

You like to twist your statements when you're incorrect.

SageBrush wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Perhaps ~ 10% of the 32 kW is lost in AC -> DC

Not a good guess. QC uses DC as its source voltage (no AC)!
The metered electricity is AC. There **is** a conversion to DC, but it happens outside the car in a QC like ChaDemo

This is not a guess, it is just a rudimentary understanding of EV charging. Try getting to that level at least, before you try to play know-it-all.



simply wrote:Hi everyone, I have a 2018 SL that I’ve been quick charging from time to time from about 30% or so and I haven’t seen 50 kW on my dash. The most I have seen is 27kW. I’m not having good feelings that this car on a long trip is going to charge fully in 30 mins or even an hour. When I do charge I get 80A 400V but inside I’m reading 27kW.

Thoughts?


SageBrush wrote:400 V * 80 A = 32 kW
So your question is where is the difference going.
Perhaps ~ 10% of the 32 kW is lost in AC -> DC
Net 27 kW energy stored sounds pretty ball-park.
If you are wondering why 32 kW from the meter, that is probably explained by the battery temperature. Nissan throttles the QC speed at temperatures much over 24 C





There is NO AC entering the vehicle when DCFC is occuring! The DCFC device supplies only DC. The BMS module in the vehicle controls
the amount of charging current. There is very little power loss in the BMS as it charges the battery. Any power loss results from the
heating of the battery (internal resistance losses). The losses of the DCFC unit as it supplies DC voltage to the vehicle are unknown
to the user.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 66K miles, 50 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

User avatar
TomT
Posts: 10605
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:36 am

Turns out the new Leaf has a very aggressive fast charging tapering profile...to the point that a 30 kWh Leaf and an 28 kWh Ioniq Electric could beat the new Leaf in a 400 mile road trip by hours!

https://pushevs.com/2018/03/18/2018-...-electric-car/

Yet another great engineering decision by Nissan. Who needs active TMS?
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

SageBrush
Posts: 2694
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Sat Mar 24, 2018 10:16 am

lorenfb wrote:
There is NO AC entering the vehicle when DCFC is occuring!

That is correct.
The original question was why the ChaDemo charger reports 80A * 400V yet only 27 kW into battery.
So of 32 kW paid for, 27 kW net into battery.

About 15% losses, mostly a result of AC->DC and resistance losses.
----
From an AC grid, there will always be AC -> DC related losses because our batteries store DC energy.
In a QC it occurs outside the car in the QC charger, while an L1 or L2 "AC EVSE" will let the car's on-board charger (OBC) handle the task.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13141
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:31 am

SageBrush wrote:
simply wrote:Hi everyone, I have a 2018 SL that I’ve been quick charging from time to time from about 30% or so and I haven’t seen 50 kW on my dash. The most I have seen is 27kW. I’m not having good feelings that this car on a long trip is going to charge fully in 30 mins or even an hour. When I do charge I get 80A 400V but inside I’m reading 27kW.

Thoughts?

400 V * 80 A = 32 kW
So your question is where is the difference going.
Perhaps ~ 10% of the 32 kW is lost in AC -> DC
And your battery heating up is energy lost -- I presume resistance losses inside the battery

Net 27 kW energy stored sounds pretty ball-park.
If you are wondering why 32 kW from the meter, that is probably explained by the battery temperature. Nissan throttles the QC speed at temperatures much over 24 C


WOW!!

I figured you would know enough to get ONE thing right...
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 8743 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 111.39 Ahr , SOH 96.49, Hx 114.98
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13141
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2018 Leaf Quick Charge

Sun Mar 25, 2018 8:33 am

SageBrush wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Perhaps ~ 10% of the 32 kW is lost in AC -> DC

Not a good guess. QC uses DC as its source voltage (no AC)!
The metered electricity is AC. There **is** a conversion to DC, but it happens outside the car in a QC like ChaDemo

This is not a guess, it is just a rudimentary understanding of EV charging. Try getting to that level at least, before you try to play know-it-all.


WOW!! This getting better and better!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 8743 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 111.39 Ahr , SOH 96.49, Hx 114.98
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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