DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Mon May 28, 2018 6:17 am

edorfox wrote:Perhaps this has been covered but, I notice my 2018 only shows 96% in LeafSpy when it shows 100% on the dash. I would guess that if it is common knowledge that charging to 100% is detrimental to the battery pack, Nissan knows it as well. Therefore, with battery degradation/warranty concerns, Nissan, in order to give the owner the satisfaction/confidence that his/her battery is "FULL", the dash shows 100% when it is actually a few "volts" short. Everyone wins! :lol:

Ed



In a nutshell, your LEAF shows only part of what is usable. LEAF Spy shows real SOC. You "can't" charge on 100% on a properly functioning BMS but LEAF will show 100% simply because that is as much charge as you will get.

The real issue becomes when you are at zero SOC on dash or "_ _ _" (this is not same as GOM version btw) since you still have miles in the tank. This makes LEAF Spy all that more valuable if you are needing that extra few miles.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13224
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Mon May 28, 2018 6:24 am

NavyCuda wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:Why are 2015ers chiming in with VERY VERY bad advice? (Maybe a glance at the thread title is in order) Charging to 100% is bad for ALL Lithium chemistries. It has nothing to do with heat. Its all about voltage and the breakdown that occurs with sustaining the voltage on the edge for extended periods of time.

So you got a 2015 W/O LEAF Spy and the only thing you can claim is you haven't lost a bar AKA at least 15+% capacity? That is hardly "good" in any way. I have NEVER lost a bar over 4 different versions of the LEAF driving MUCH farther and guess what? Other than my much maligned 2016 S 30, the packs have exhibited unacceptably high degradation which is why I don't have them anymore. The 2018 is still being evaluated but has the likely potential of having 2015 like degradation and still be acceptable simply because it has a LOT TO LOSE. Your 2015's don't.


Wrong.

All battery chemistries, lead acid, nicad, li-ion, li-polymer, etc, benifit from the cells being properly balanced. If anything the hardest things on the batteries are not balancing and not charging frequently enough. Those of you going to extremes to try and save your batteries are reducing their lifespan and then use those bad datapoints to further your erroreous theory.

The only major difference is that li-ion doesn’t need a maintenance charge and prolonged storage at 100% state of charge is not ideal.


Your statement implies that not charging to 100% ever means the cells will never be balanced and that is wrong. Cells balance ALL the time no matter what SOC you are at so they will always be close. Top end balance does not guarantee greater health especially since high SOC DOES guarantee greater stress on the anode/cathode.

You have a VERY limited range LEAF so its a better idea to balance cells on top end simply because it can give you slightly more range but for most people, they simply don't live in a climate that makes it a good idea.

I have a MUCH more useful LEAF than you do. So I do not need to balance the top end for the extra miles. I drove 161 miles the other day and still had about 10 left when I got home and that was on a single charge. I can live with that....for a long time!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Marty
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:39 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Mar 2018
Leaf Number: 305053
Location: Connecticut

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Mon May 28, 2018 8:08 am

Time will tell. How much time, just a few months. A short trip to the supermarket when the temp is 95 deg. F. Park the car in the sun because no shade is near. This battery will cook! Not even driving fast or fast charging. I think you get the picture. At the end of the summer many will be surprised how much battery degradation there actually is. Now range is 140 miles, next year 125 and so on. What will Nissan do? Drastically cut regeneration braking, (this is already in their playbook) alter fast charging, acceleration, who knows. 2018 owners get ready..

smkettner
Posts: 7190
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Mon May 28, 2018 8:47 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
If anything the hardest things on the batteries are not balancing and not charging frequently enough.


Wrong. Being somewhat out of balance and with a moderate SOC doesn't harm lithium cells if they aren't pushed hard.
Yes and still will need to be balanced to get the maximum range that people expect.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
I-Pace on order for end of 2018 delivery

NavyCuda
Posts: 131
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:14 pm
Delivery Date: 24 Jun 2015
Leaf Number: 329051

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Mon May 28, 2018 8:53 am

When my ‘18 shows up it’ll get fully charged at least once every day it gets used. Only ~7more weeks, it has a VIN!

Foschas
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:35 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Jul 2015
Leaf Number: 320277
Location: Mass

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed May 30, 2018 11:10 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Why are 2015ers chiming in with VERY VERY bad advice? (Maybe a glance at the thread title is in order) Charging to 100% is bad for ALL Lithium chemistries. It has nothing to do with heat. Its all about voltage and the breakdown that occurs with sustaining the voltage on the edge for extended periods of time.

So you got a 2015 W/O LEAF Spy and the only thing you can claim is you haven't lost a bar AKA at least 15+% capacity? That is hardly "good" in any way. I have NEVER lost a bar over 4 different versions of the LEAF driving MUCH farther and guess what? Other than my much maligned 2016 S 30, the packs have exhibited unacceptably high degradation which is why I don't have them anymore. The 2018 is still being evaluated but has the likely potential of having 2015 like degradation and still be acceptable simply because it has a LOT TO LOSE. Your 2015's don't.


Lol no advice, just my situation. I’m a just drive it kind of guy. Take care of it and it takes care of me. When it doesn’t we’ll break up and I’ll find another valiant steed. Really have fun, change your oil regularly and charge to what ever let’s you sleep at night.

P.s. how do you limit a base model to stop charging at a certain percentage?

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9394
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed May 30, 2018 12:02 pm

Lol no advice, just my situation. I’m a just drive it kind of guy. Take care of it and it takes care of me. When it doesn’t we’ll break up and I’ll find another valiant steed. Really have fun, change your oil regularly and charge to what ever let’s you sleep at night.


The last sentence is advice, and contradicts the first one. There is no oil to be changed. And there is no way to limit charging on a post-2013 Leaf aside from unplugging it.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

johnlocke
Posts: 287
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed May 30, 2018 1:35 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
edorfox wrote:Perhaps this has been covered but, I notice my 2018 only shows 96% in LeafSpy when it shows 100% on the dash. I would guess that if it is common knowledge that charging to 100% is detrimental to the battery pack, Nissan knows it as well. Therefore, with battery degradation/warranty concerns, Nissan, in order to give the owner the satisfaction/confidence that his/her battery is "FULL", the dash shows 100% when it is actually a few "volts" short. Everyone wins! :lol:

Ed


Unfortunately the previous Leafs also showed a higher than actual SOC, but it wasn't enough of a buffer.

Full charge on a Leaf is 4.11-4.12V per cell. 100% charge on single cell would be 4.18-4.19V. Nissan only charges the battery to about 96% of actual capacity. They intentionally did that to prolong battery life. They should have aimed slightly lower in my opinion but They did the testing and that's what Nissan decided on. How you charge or how often you charge doesn't really seem to make much difference. Where you charge makes a huge difference. Cars in the Southwest suffer a lot more degradation than cars in the Northwest. Deep south more so than Northeast and so on. Canadians and Europeans appear to be home free. Thirty KWH batteries age worse than twenty-four KWH. Beyond that opinions differ, some say never charge over 80% while others routinely charge to 100%. There's anecdotal evidence for nearly any combination you can think of. Charge it up, drive the hell out of it, enjoy the ride and be prepared to throw it away at the end of the day.

It's way too early to predict what the 40KWH batteries will be like but the news doesn't look encouraging.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9394
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed May 30, 2018 2:22 pm

They should have aimed slightly lower in my opinion but They did the testing and that's what Nissan decided on.


I know you aren't expressing faith in Nissan's battery testing, but just for the newbies; don't put faith in Nissan's battery testing!

It isn't where you charge, actually: it's how hot the weather is when you charge, wherever you are.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Foschas
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:35 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Jul 2015
Leaf Number: 320277
Location: Mass

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed May 30, 2018 2:36 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Lol no advice, just my situation. I’m a just drive it kind of guy. Take care of it and it takes care of me. When it doesn’t we’ll break up and I’ll find another valiant steed. Really have fun, change your oil regularly and charge to what ever let’s you sleep at night.


The last sentence is advice, and contradicts the first one. There is no oil to be changed. And there is no way to limit charging on a post-2013 Leaf aside from unplugging it.


No oil? I’ll be calling the dealers service Dept tomorrow! The audacity!

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