kosjet
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:05 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Sep 2018
Leaf Number: 317089
Location: Delaware

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:49 am

alozzy wrote:The question is why would anyone gamble on the LEAF and its history of rapid battery degradation when other competitors are offering 40 kWh or more packs that DO have TMS.

Unless Nissan steps up to the plate and knocks out a home run (ie a 60 kWh pack, with TMS, available in 2019, at a lower price point than the competition), my next EV will be a Kona Electric, Niro EV, or possibly even an IONIQ or perhaps a Bolt.

What is the upside of buying a new LEAF at this point in time?


It's a bit unfair to compare something that is available today against something that won't be available for maybe a year with questionable nationwide availability.

The upside is value. I didn't want to pay $5k more (That's a 30% premium on the $17k I paid for an SL) for a Bolt that gives me 2% additional utility.

I'm not saying you should buy a 2018 Leaf and I sympathize with early adopters that unfortunately got burned, but to say that no one should "gamble" on the Leaf is a bit presumptuous. What has Nissan done for the cause? They have put hundreds of thousands of drivers into an EV worldwide at price points that Tesla was not able to fulfill. I would gamble that a good percentage of those drivers are never turning back.
2018 Leaf SL w/Tech delivered 9/29/2018

alozzy
Posts: 1162
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:11 am

Surely loyalty to Nissan, as a mass market EV pioneer, doesn't grant them a free pass indefinitely for failing to listen to their customers. Nissan is well aware that their battery tech is inferior and they've failed, thus far, to fix the problem.

The rapidgate issue is further evidence that they still don't play fair as they clearly designed the charging algorithm to reduce charging at high temps yet hid that decision from buyers.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

kosjet
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:05 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Sep 2018
Leaf Number: 317089
Location: Delaware

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:15 am

Nissan is addressing it with the 2019 model year. Is that too late? They are behind Chevy by 2 years. And agree that rapidgate wasn't cool. They should know by now that the EV driver crowd tends to be extremely well informed. However, they are still keeping the 40kWh model to fill a niche that other manufacturers don't have filled because the TMS and additional range adds additional cost. I agree with them as I would take the moderate range and no TMS versus shorter range with TMS.

For me as an informed consumer that was already aware of rapidgate and the potential for battery degradation, it is still the best choice. How many times would I need to rapid charge more than once a day? Maybe once or twice a year. In my worst case scenario, we would have to take the ICE car 7 times a year *if(and when :))* the battery degraded to that point. For me, the extra utility of gaining those at worst 7 days of usage is not worth the extra cost. Everybody has to do their own calculus based on their needs.

Are there better cars that will come out in the future? Absolutely. However for my use case, I can see myself getting a good 10 years of utility out of this car at an amazingly low price and then the calculus can start a new.
2018 Leaf SL w/Tech delivered 9/29/2018

powersurge
Posts: 1090
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:24 am
Delivery Date: 06 Dec 2014
Location: Long Island, NY

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 11:37 am

I love the postings that analyzed the different charging scenarios. I hate listening to constant belly aching about how long the batteries should last, and how they hate Nissan. We own these cars, they have worked for us, even with the 24KWH cars... Mine is one of them.

When we bought them, WE KNEW THAT THE BATTERIES WERE GOING TO DETERIORATE.... We took on the challenge of the EV and rolled the dice. My 24KWH car has been serving me faithfully and wonderfully for 50K+ miles, and I expect to reach 80,000 to 90,000 before it gives me any trouble.

What we as a Leaf community need to do is NOT complain about how the new cars ARE NOT BEING MADE WELL ENOUGH. We need to be lobbying to have our perfectly good cars get replacement batteries at a good cost. When I bought the car, the figure was a solid $5K to replace the traction battery. I still bought the car, expecting in best case to be in the $3-4K price as prices would logically drop.

We need to fight to keep battery prices low from Nissan, not complain about their new cars....

JonathanT
Posts: 26
Joined: Fri May 24, 2013 2:54 pm
Delivery Date: 24 Oct 2018
Location: Central NJ

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:40 pm

powersurge wrote:I love the postings that analyzed the different charging scenarios. I hate listening to constant belly aching about how long the batteries should last, and how they hate Nissan. We own these cars, they have worked for us, even with the 24KWH cars... Mine is one of them.

When we bought them, WE KNEW THAT THE BATTERIES WERE GOING TO DETERIORATE.... We took on the challenge of the EV and rolled the dice. My 24KWH car has been serving me faithfully and wonderfully for 50K+ miles, and I expect to reach 80,000 to 90,000 before it gives me any trouble.

What we as a Leaf community need to do is NOT complain about how the new cars ARE NOT BEING MADE WELL ENOUGH. We need to be lobbying to have our perfectly good cars get replacement batteries at a good cost. When I bought the car, the figure was a solid $5K to replace the traction battery. I still bought the car, expecting in best case to be in the $3-4K price as prices would logically drop.

We need to fight to keep battery prices low from Nissan, not complain about their new cars....


Getting back to the title of this thread, do we really have any idea how the 2018 battery will degrade based on at most 9 months of data? It all depends on the shape of the degradation curve. It's well known that degradation is quicker with a new battery.

For example, my 2013 Leaf degraded about 8% in 12 months, but after that only about 2% a year, so now I'm down to 54.5 Ah at 62 months (27500 miles) with 83% SOH. For whatever it's worth, I have no QC port and charge to 80% about 80% of the time. I never leave it at 100% charge for more than a few hours. I also put an attic fan in the garage which helps cool it at night in summer.

The car has served me well, but I'm an old guy and I think I need Propilot Assist, e-pedal, the360 all around view etc. So I plan to get the 2019 40 kWh version when they bring the rebates back.
2013 SV, then 2019 SL powered by 9.9 kW solar PV array in NJ

cwerdna
Posts: 8281
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:12 am

powersurge wrote:I love the postings that analyzed the different charging scenarios. I hate listening to constant belly aching about how long the batteries should last, and how they hate Nissan. We own these cars, they have worked for us, even with the 24KWH cars... Mine is one of them.

When we bought them, WE KNEW THAT THE BATTERIES WERE GOING TO DETERIORATE.... We took on the challenge of the EV and rolled the dice. My 24KWH car has been serving me faithfully and wonderfully for 50K+ miles, and I expect to reach 80,000 to 90,000 before it gives me any trouble.

As I pointed out to you before and pointed you to viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22446&p=469608&hilit=percent+perry#p469608 from viewtopic.php?p=508974#p508974, Nissan went on the record claiming their packs would have 70 to 80% capacity after 10 years and that they didn't need thermal management. I doubt ANY of the original '11 Leafs if still on their original pack in any climate will have 70% capacity after 10 years. And remember, we saw 4 capacity bar losers in Phoenix as soon as 21 months after Leaf intro. And, it's been obvious that for a given chemistry, the climate makes a huge difference.

We knew they would deteriorate and we were led to believe the above.
powersurge wrote:We need to be lobbying to have our perfectly good cars get replacement batteries at a good cost. When I bought the car, the figure was a solid $5K to replace the traction battery. I still bought the car, expecting in best case to be in the $3-4K price as prices would logically drop.

Until the announcement on Jun 27, 2014 at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=374490 of $5499 + tax and labor we had NO price for a replacement battery. Nissan provided us none, despite people pleading for it.

They were supposed to originally provide one by Spring 2013 and they waited until the last day to inform of us a $100/mo battery leasing program at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13331&hilit=bbrockman+%24100+month that everyone hated. They then went silent for over a year.
Last edited by cwerdna on Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 8281
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:14 am

JonathanT wrote:Getting back to the title of this thread, do we really have any idea how the 2018 battery will degrade based on at most 9 months of data? It all depends on the shape of the degradation curve. It's well known that degradation is quicker with a new battery.

No on the 1st. Yes on the 2nd point. We need 40 kWh Leafs to go thru at least 2 hot summers to see how they hold up. IIRC, that's about how long it took for 24 kWh '11 Leaf degradation issues to rear its head.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

User avatar
TomT
Posts: 10611
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
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Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 6:22 am

Yep, the main reason why Nissan is now off my EV list, likely forever...

alozzy wrote:Surely loyalty to Nissan, as a mass market EV pioneer, doesn't grant them a free pass indefinitely for failing to listen to their customers. Nissan is well aware that their battery tech is inferior and they've failed, thus far, to fix the problem.

The rapidgate issue is further evidence that they still don't play fair as they clearly designed the charging algorithm to reduce charging at high temps yet hid that decision from buyers.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

Joe6pack
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:57 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Oct 2012
Leaf Number: 025854

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:45 pm

cwerdna wrote:
powersurge wrote:I love the postings that analyzed the different charging scenarios. I hate listening to constant belly aching about how long the batteries should last, and how they hate Nissan. We own these cars, they have worked for us, even with the 24KWH cars... Mine is one of them.

When we bought them, WE KNEW THAT THE BATTERIES WERE GOING TO DETERIORATE.... We took on the challenge of the EV and rolled the dice. My 24KWH car has been serving me faithfully and wonderfully for 50K+ miles, and I expect to reach 80,000 to 90,000 before it gives me any trouble.

As I pointed out to you before and pointed you to viewtopic.php?f=30&t=22446&p=469608&hilit=percent+perry#p469608 from viewtopic.php?p=508974#p508974, Nissan went on the record claiming their packs would have 70 to 80% capacity after 10 years and that they didn't need thermal management. I doubt ANY of the original '11 Leafs if still on their original pack in any climate will have 70% capacity after 10 years. And remember, we saw 4 capacity bar losers in Phoenix as soon as 21 months after Leaf intro. And, it's been obvious that for a given chemistry, the climate makes a huge difference.

We knew they would deteriorate and we were led to believe the above.
powersurge wrote:We need to be lobbying to have our perfectly good cars get replacement batteries at a good cost. When I bought the car, the figure was a solid $5K to replace the traction battery. I still bought the car, expecting in best case to be in the $3-4K price as prices would logically drop.

Until the announcement on Jun 27, 2014 at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=374490 of $5499 + tax and labor we had NO price for a replacement battery. Nissan provided us none, despite people pleading for it.

They were supposed to originally provide one by Spring 2013 and they waited until the last day to inform of us a $100/mo battery leasing program at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13331&hilit=bbrockman+%24100+month that everyone hated. They then went silent for over a year.


Ancient history. Nissan was wrong about the early batteries, and being wrong happens to lots of companies. Nissan is not unique in this. Look at Tesla's track record - full self-driving, battery swapping, failed drive units, broken control arms, late deliveries - the list goes on. Essentially, Nissan was wrong about one thing - battery longevity - and they have made efforts to correct that while maintaining a price point no one else can touch. Even the so-called rapidgate is an effort to improve battery life and is a nothing-burger in the great scheme of things. If this is the best that Nissan's critcs can do, then Nissan is clearly doing it right.

And what idiot doesn't know that lithium-ion batteries degrade? Anyone who has ever owned a laptop or mobile phone knows this. I leased my LEAF fully expecting the battery to degrade at some rate, but I figured it would at least last the life of the lease. It did, and with the prospect of a new battery I bought the car at the end of the lease. It now has 64,000 miles on it and a new battery and I couldn't be happier. And not once have I had to take it in for service that wasn't routine. I doubt any Tesla owner can say that.
2012 Leaf SL leased October 4th, 2012
Braselton, GA

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9575
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Yikes, degradation is looking bad (2018 Leaf)

Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:18 pm

Yet another "Nissan's screwup worked out fine for ME, so stop whining about YOUR Leaf problems!" argument. Very helpful.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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