Can I afford a Leaf in Quebec, Canada

Hi all,

I live in Montreal. I have been thinking of getting a Leaf since they came out. Today with a barrel of oil at 47$ish we are still paying $1.25 a liter for gas (thats about 5$ CAD a gallon). But if you have the Hydro DT rate (which I do) you only pay 4 cents a KwH (for 90% of the year). Seems electric cars are a no brainer here if your commute is short.

But the weather is extreme. The summers get up to 35C with very high humidity and the winters get extremely cold -25C with bone chilling winds. And this can go on for days. We need good heating in the cars in the winter and good cooling in the summer. Now I'm driving a 2002 Honda CRV and the climate system is still amazing! Works better than any car I have ever used.

My commute is about 10KM each way to work. This would be a second car.

On the Nissan Canada website... a 4 year SV lease is $512 a month including tax. Put $3000 down and it drops to $435. Includes $8K from gov.
We also need a charger. I know there is a gov subsidy on this of about $1000. What do they cost to buy? To install?

In my climate in the extremes of summer and winter what type of mileage can I expect in the extremes? in the regular?
I do only city driving.. not much highway in Montreal. Lotta stop and go.
Can I leave the car outside at home and work?

Thanks for all you help!
Terry

I can't help you with leasing costs since prices are considerably different than south of the 49th Parallel, but in terms of usability you should have no problem with a 10 km commute.

Because your winters are more extreme you may want to get one with the "hybrid heater." That means it comes with a heat pump that will supply heat down to about 5 degrees F (-15 C), below which the regular resistive heater takes over. The resistive heater does use up a lot more electricity but that should not be a problem with your very short commute. I think the specs for the Canadian-model Leafs are slightly different than down here, but for us the mid-level SV and the top of the line SL come with the hybrid heater, and the Leaf S comes only with the resistive heater. The Leaf S in Canada does come with the 6.6 kW charger as standard equipment, whereas it is optional here for the S.

The A/C works very well here in rather warm SoCal. My car is an older version with the resistive heater and these models supposedly have a better A/C system. However I have not heard any complaints about any Leaf having an insufficient A/C.

Regarding an EVSE (which is what most people mistakenly call a "charger"), Sun Country's 20 amp SCH25 is currently on sale for CAD$499. It is little more than a re-labeled Clipper Creek LCS-25 which is US $469, so you're actually getting a bargain (which is usually not the case when comparing prices on each side of the border). Clipper Creek does offer an even less expensive (US$379) 15 amp LCS-20 but Sun Country does not appear to sell it. None of these prices include installation costs since that varies so much, but if you have an unused 240 volt outlet in your garage or next to your parking space that will cut down costs significantly.

If your home's "hydro" feed can handle it, you may want to consider a 30 amp model which will charge any 2013+ Canadian-spec Leaf at its maximum L2 charging speed (approx 5 hours for a fully depleted battery). While your commute can easily be served by using the 120 volt EVSE that comes with the car, keep in mind that not only will you need to stay plugged in longer, but it will have trouble pre-warming the car's interior during the winter with your temps. In fact you won't be able to charge and pre-warm simultaneously on 120 volts.

Stop and go traffic is where EV's (and hybrids when operating in electric mode) shine the brightest. And yes you can leave it parked outside if you want to, or have to.

I live in Upstate NY and we have a climate much like yours - maybe a little warmer more often, but just as cold when it gets frigid. My SV always got at least 45 miles of range, even when it was subzero (F, not C) and windy outside. The car also sat outdoors most of the time, exposed to those winds. To top it off, I only have L-1 charging. Despite all of that, I did fine with a 43 mile round trip commute - at worst I lowered the temp setting to 69 or 70F. You'd be just fine with a 20k commute, even if you end up using the supplied L-1 charging cable.

Hi,

In Canada the SV (middle model) has the hybrid heater according to the PDF brochure.

Terry

Hello,

I am in Montreal too. I had a 2011 and a 2015. Best car ever for Montreal traffic jam. I am doing 80KM / day, no garage.
Drove the 2011 (which had no battery heaters) without any touble even after many days bleow -25C.
You can expect 100KM of range when using heating at -20C. I was able to get more than 120KM range at -25C with carefull driving and heated seats and wheel.

In summer you can expect 130KM range at 105KM/h or more than 160KM if you drive at 90KM/h.
The charger is not very expensive, check EVDuty. Made in Quebec with fast service if needed.

You can get the SV for cheap with the Nissan rebate 4K, QC rebate 8K and AVEQ rebate (1200$), check http://www.aveq.ca for details.
In Montreal, you should be able to get the SV rental at 410$ / month with no deposit.

I have done 50000KM with our 2 leafs, no maintenance needed except swapping tire for winter and summer. Btw the Leaf is great in the snow!

Summer heat is not a problem, air conditionning is very efficient and has almost no impact on range.

If the French forum from the aveq.ca website is a problem, let me know, I can translate some of the information. I thin

Fabien

Thanks Fabien! I will check out the other forum.

I have yet to take it for a test drive. How does it handle our (bad) roads? Does it accelerate well? Does using the AC (or heat) impact the acceleration like a small gas powered engine? I am a bit of a lead foot ... was looking at the new Mazda CX3... those are my 2 choices at the moment.

If I put the charger/EVSE inside the garage next to the door... can I run the cable under the garage door to the outside when I want to leave the car outside and charge it?

Cheers!
Terry

The Leaf has instant torque and a lot of torque.
It is much better than a regular ICE car, even with a large V6. You really need to do a test drive.
Instant torque and how quiet the ride is, are two important plus of driving an EV.

You will never miss power with an electric car, even when it is cold or very warm.

The Leaf is not low on the road, it is a very good car for dirt road or bad road like we have in Montreal, (many large potholes)

You can keep your car outside for charging. We do not have a garage and both of our EVs are outside all year long.

Precondionning the car is really great. No gas smell and a warm car every morning even when it is -20C outside, no snow or ice to remove!

tls said:

Does it accelerate well?

Click to expand...

The Leaf's 0-60 MPH time is around 10 seconds so while it can safely accelerate onto a freeway it is not what you would call fast. However, it can beat many ICEVs to about 30-35 MPH, due to the 200 or so lb-ft of torque that is available from the moment the motor starts turning. That's why it feels so quick in city traffic.

Does using the AC (or heat) impact the acceleration like a small gas powered engine?

Click to expand...

Nope, as these are driven electrically, and not mechanically like the A/C compressor would be on an ICEV. As already mentioned A/C usage has minimal impact on range. Heat is a different story, but models with the heat pump aren't as bad as the ones that only have a resistive heater.

If I put the charger/EVSE inside the garage next to the door... can I run the cable under the garage door to the outside when I want to leave the car outside and charge it?

Click to expand...

People here who do that have often done one of two things:

• They have made their own "doggie door" for the EVSE cord and handle
• They have chiseled out a little channel in the concrete for the cord to pass through without being pinched by a closed garage door

Thanks all!

Fabien mentioned about the Nissan rebate 4K, QC. Anyone have any info on that? I know that there is 8K$ from the government. And I think 1k$ for the charger. Do you still get $1K if you install a $500 charger with a $200 installation?

Cheers!
Terry

For the EV recharge equipement you still get 50% refund for the install: http://vehiculeselectriques.gouv.qc.ca/english/

The 4K rebate is for Canada, and is a Nissan rebate. Details there, I have not found the english page yet:
========================
Voilà d'où vient le 4000$

http://www.apa.ca/carsearch_fr.asp?optone=NISSAN&opttwo=1307

Incitatifs

Incitatifs à l`achat comptant:

Rabais de 3500$.

Incitatifs au financement:

Rabais de 4000$ avec financement à taux standard.
OU
Financement à 1,9% jusqu`à 72 mois.

Incitatifs à la location:

Rabais de 500$ avec location à 2,49% pour 36/48 mois sur le modèle S.
Location à 3,49% pour 36/48 mois sur les modèles SV et SL.

Incitatifs additionnels du manufacturier

800$ rabais pour propriétaires ou locataires de Nissan. Applicable au financement et à la location.
Contactez votre concessionnaire pour plus de détails. Valable jusqu`à nouvel ordre.

The Nissan Canada rebate when I bought mine and when I last checked for a friend was only if you pay cash or use non Nissan Canada financing. From my ok French I think that's what the cut and paste above says too. If you go with Non Nissan Subsidized financing you're likely to pay as little as 3.9-4.9% which eats away at the total end cost of the $4k off. When you talk to the dealer ask them what the "effective rate" of financing is. They have to disclose this by law and it's what the rate would be factoring any cash deal incentive as interest. If it's higher than the interest rate you can get somewhere else then it's a benefit to do financing outside of Nissan. A non honest salesperson would be happy to do in house financing on it for you (they may make more money on that) and let you take the $4k without fully explaining how you'll just pay for it in the end. Using Ontario as a guide (the site detected my location automatically) the effective interest rate is 6.17% and it would be $590 to finance an SV for 60 months through Nissan and $560 to get the cash deal and pay 4.9% to another loan company.

As for the leaf working in Montreal for 10km commute???? It will be so much nicer than any gas car you have ever had. In that short time I doubt they ever warmed up fully, you'll be getting into a warm car all winter.

Yes you could do fine with an L1 120volt only charger but if you ever want to drive it more on non work days and if you want to preheat it without affecting the range as much you'll want at least a 30 amp EVSE. I got my 20 amp unit from Costco.ca for about $600 shipped. It's a sun country highway/clipper creek. I have it installed outside with a hole drilled through the brick to plug into an outlet in the garage. I wish I had gone 30 amp for pre heating without loosing 5-7% battery charge but it still works fine for what I need. I'm in Hamilton and our winter last year was more like a typical Quebec winter. I'm doing 140 km a day with an L1 charge at work, my wife does 88km a day with no charge. We have done 40,000km in one year. We pay about 8cents a kWh for non peak time power and that has cost us about $400. It would have been $6000 in my hypermille driven MDX.

I went with Nokian Hakka R2 winter tires which are very low rolling resistance and will help with winter range. The smaller 16in rims for winter tires work better and go with a 205 60 16 rather than the stock 205 55 16.

Hi,

I agree that the $4000 rebate is for cash sale (not lease, not financing). However, minspeed brings up an interesting point about the finance rate.

He wrote... Using Ontario as a guide the effective interest rate is 6.17% and it would be $590 to finance an SV for 60 months through Nissan and $560 to get the cash deal and pay 4.9% to another loan company.

If I understand correctly....

In Quebec the SV is just under 35K including tax and gov rebates. Or if you pay cash is just under 31K.
The 48 month lease is $512 with rate of 3.49 (effective 5.86).
The 60 month finance is $611 with rate of 1.9% (effective 6.21).

So you are saying the effective rate includes the loss of the 4000 cash rebate.

So if I borrow the 31K from the bank at 3% the monthly payment will be approx $560. A savings of $50 a month x 60 payments = $3000.

I currently spend about $100 a month on gas. So lets give the benefit of the doubt that the electricity is free. What kind of vehicle can I get for $450 a month?

I was really thinking to lease... if tomorrow the car companies come out with a much better battery for cheaper then it will be very difficult to sell this vehicle.

Hard decisions!

Thanks and regards,
Terry

Yes the effective rate is a legal requirement because it is the true interest rate. They still show both though because it's the other one that is used in calculations. For example if you put $0 down vs $2000 down the interest rate used for calculations doesn't change but the effective interest rate does.

The Ford Focus EV has the employee pricing now, the lease rate is 0% now and you get the employee price regardless of cash/finance/lease.

Without any rebates it's $526 a month with tax for 16,000 km a year.
I'm not sure how the rebates work in QC so I calculated them like they do in ON. For a lease the rebate counts as a deposit but the rebate comes off post tax. When you put a down payment on a lease you have to pay tax on that so to estimate it online take the total rebate you'll get and divide it by the tax rate, for ON that's $8500/1.13 so you plug $7522. That would give a lease price for the Ford of $349 vs $490 for a leaf SV.

I really wanted to go with the ford but I didn't for 6 reasons.
1. I couldn't test drive one, none of the dealers around here stock them so it was order it if you want it.
2. There are few of them so service might be longer, with my knowledge of EVs being much more reliable now I think this is a smaller issue than I made it out to be. If you are only 10km from work it's a much smaller issue for you which leads to my 3rd reason
3. Winter range, no heat pump so the heater will impact range more. Again for you driving 10 km to work you can blast the heat all you want both ways and won't have a problem
4. No quick charge, although there were only 2 QC in Ontario when I bought they are both around the corner from my work. There are many more QC in Quebec and a plan with Hydro Quebec and Nissan backing to install more is already under way.
5. Smaller back seat/trunk, with strollers and large child seats and 1 kid already with maybe 2 more to come this was an issue. If all my kids were older and in booster seats it would not have been an issue for me, I actually find the front seats much more comfortable for my height of 6'4"
6. Price was within $10 a month when I was looking, at todays price I would have picked the Ford. I may have regretted it with my long drive but it would just mean more time at L2s charging or using my wifes Prius more in the winter.

The big question you have to ask yourself is how far is the furthest you'd expect to drive away from home in the winter without having to use a second car or rent a car? You'll save over $1500 a year on the ford. In -30C out I wouldn't try to go more than 80km without a charge in the leaf, less if all highway. I would imagine the Ford would be around 60-70km.

If you have a second car that's way more than you'll ever spend on gas for trips where a Leaf could make it and a Ford won't. If this is going to be your only car you can rent a car a few times and still have money left over.

Hi,

Currently we have 2 SUV's. A 2011 and 2002 CRV. What great vehicles! The 2002 runs very well. It has 107km. We have very bad roads and the suspension takes a real beating! The 02 is not a pleasure to drive...missing alot of newer bells and whistles. And rough ride.

My commute is 10km each way. So range is not an issue. I will however get the SV as it has a the heat pump and better charger at least in Quebec. Madam goes downtown to work... about 15 km.

I am really tired of paying for gas. They gouge us so badly here...the oil companies and the gov. It's 1.25 a liter today...

However its hard to justify the monthly price for an electric Nissan Versa (yes I know it's a much better). But more or less that it what it is.

Just my thoughts out loud. I'm sure we all have them .

Cheers!
Terry