Newbie: Range Questions 34 mile one way commute

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offtosleep said:
Okay, just a quick update. I drove to the IHS facility I will be working at today. Talked with the maintenance department and they gave me a thumbs up on using. 110v outlet near the maintenance dept building. Also found another option: they have on campus RV hookups. If I brought a charger (240v L2), they would wire it in and charge me $40 a month. Either way, sounds like I'm golden.
Excellent news!

Check out EVSEupgrade.com
They will upgrade your OEM NIssan EVSE so that it can work with either L1 or L2 with an adapter. That way the facility does not have to hard-wire anything and you will have a choice of outlets ... and presumably not pay $40 a month.

One thing you should do: verify what breakers (fuses) the outlets are on. You don't want your EVSE to try and pull more amperage than the wires/fuse are rated.
 
Another quick question: looking at picking up a second one. 2016 Nissan Leaf SL. New. Still has $7500 tax refund intact. Does $25,900 out the door sound reasonable?
 
I'd say it's a good deal if it has Premium Package, and a decent deal if not. I would check the battery with LeafSpy, though, unless it was built no earlier than last Fall.
 
offtosleep said:
Another quick question: looking at picking up a second one. 2016 Nissan Leaf SL. New. Still has $7500 tax refund intact. Does $25,900 out the door sound reasonable?
Not really

Buy in a region that has a $10k discount and ship home
 
SageBrush said:
offtosleep said:
Another quick question: looking at picking up a second one. 2016 Nissan Leaf SL. New. Still has $7500 tax refund intact. Does $25,900 out the door sound reasonable?
Not really

Buy in a region that has a $10k discount and ship home

I'm all ears! Tell me more. I wasn't aware that some regions offered more. I would have to ship the second one ($25,900) already, so I wasn't afraid of that part. Just want to get as much discount as possible.
 
offtosleep said:
SageBrush said:
offtosleep said:
Another quick question: looking at picking up a second one. 2016 Nissan Leaf SL. New. Still has $7500 tax refund intact. Does $25,900 out the door sound reasonable?
Not really

Buy in a region that has a $10k discount and ship home

I'm all ears! Tell me more. I wasn't aware that some regions offered more. I would have to ship the second one ($25,900) already, so I wasn't afraid of that part. Just want to get as much discount as possible.
They pop up periodically. In the last 6 months I have seen Austin, Tx; MN, and Kansas City.

The offers usually have trivial eligibility requirements that I suspect no one cares about -- least of all the dealers.
Or just go with Tynan's in Fort Collins Colorado for $24.5k
http://www.tynansnissanftcollins.com/
Tynan's appears to be running a lease deal for $1900 down and $100 a month for 24 months but I have not looked into details. Specifically, I don't know if the Colorado rebate is folded into the deal.

Or:
http://www.bouldernissan.com/
2017 LEAF 'S' for $1000 down and $139 a month + tax for 36 months
 
SageBrush said:
offtosleep said:
SageBrush said:
Not really

Buy in a region that has a $10k discount and ship home

I'm all ears! Tell me more. I wasn't aware that some regions offered more. I would have to ship the second one ($25,900) already, so I wasn't afraid of that part. Just want to get as much discount as possible.
They pop up periodically. In the last 6 months I have seen Austin, Tx; MN, and Kansas City.

The offers usually have trivial eligibility requirements that I suspect no one cares about -- least of all the dealers.
Or just go with Tynan's in Fort Collins Colorado for $24.5k
http://www.tynansnissanftcollins.com/
Tynan's appears to be running a lease deal for $1900 down and $100 a month for 24 months but I have not looked into details. Specifically, I don't know if the Colorado rebate is folded into the deal.

Even better:
http://www.bouldernissan.com/
2017 LEAF 'S' for $1000 down and $139 a month + tax for 36 months

These all look like leases. I'd like to purchase.
 
offtosleep said:
SageBrush said:
Or just go with Tynan's in Fort Collins Colorado for $24.5k
http://www.tynansnissanftcollins.com/

These all look like leases. I'd like to purchase.
The Tynan link may interest you.
May I ask why you want to buy ? That seems like a questionable strategy, for a number of reasons:

1. Near term 200 mile EVs are going to kill the value of our 24 - 30 kWh LEAFs. I expect Nissan to heavily discount the 30 kWh LEAFS in the summer in anticipation of their next gen LEAF due in the autumn.
2. Tesla Model 3 will be available in a couple of years
3. Arizona can be very hard on a LEAF battery
 
SageBrush said:
offtosleep said:
SageBrush said:
Or just go with Tynan's in Fort Collins Colorado for $24.5k
http://www.tynansnissanftcollins.com/

These all look like leases. I'd like to purchase.
The Tynan link may interest you.
May I ask why you want to buy ? That seems like a questionable strategy, for a number of reasons:

1. Near term 200 mile EVs are going to kill the value of our 24 - 30 kWh LEAFs. I expect Nissan to heavily discount the 30 kWh LEAFS in the summer in anticipation of their next gen LEAF due in the autumn.
2. Tesla Model 3 will be available in a couple of years
3. Arizona can be very hard on a LEAF battery

All very good points. Seems odd that certain states do these crazy deals and others don't.
 
Keep in mind that you will be charged sales tax in AZ if you purchase out of state and do not pay sales tax when you purchase it. Lease is OK if your annual mileage fits with the terms and/or you cannot take full advantage of the tax credit. Purchase is better if you can take the full tax credit and drive too many miles for a lease (especially if you plan to keep the car a long time). Offtosleep's climate is much cooler than mine so battery degradation should be similar to Colorado or Northern California.
 
From Show Low, AZ to the Hospital, there is one J1772 outlet at:

Quality Inn, 458 E White Mountain Blvd., Pinetop, AZ 85935

https://api.plugshare.com/view/location/79860

I would consider this an "emergency" stop only.

If the hospital will let you charge, obviously any LEAF can do the job. Yes, it's great to hedge your bets with a "better" LEAF with faster charging, bigger battery, more efficient cabin heater, etc, but it's just NOT required to do this drive.

One thing I would require is that a dedicated charging spot with 240 volt service be written into the contract. They can EASILY do that with a dedicated 120 volt outlet, simply by using the existing wiring. Just swap the single pole 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker to a 2 pole 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker (this normally just pop in, and typically cost $10). Then, just move the white "neutral" wire to Line 2 in the breaker box. Wrap some black tape around the white wire at each end to indicate that it is now a 120 volt wire, and not a neutral.

Then, pop in a dedicated 240 wall outlet like an NEMA L6-15 (for a locking 15 amp circuit) or a NEMA L6-20R (for a locking 20 amp circuit).

Again, in writing, with 240 volts. It's cheap and easy for them to do (again, assuming a 120 volt dedicated 15 or 20 amps outlet is already waiting for you).

Then, I would LEASE a LEAF. The deal I got in California with zero negotiating was:

$33k for a 2017 LEAF-S with 30kWh battery and fast charging (you actually don't need the fast charging, but it won't hurt either)
$14k discount ($7500 IRS tax credit to Nissan plus $6500 discount from Nissan)
$10k total cost of LEAF for 36 months (about $277 per month)
$9.1k residual (what you are going to pay for the car to buy it in 3 years)
$0 down with good credit

$2500 California state rebate check that you won't get

If you can't find this locally in Phoenix, ship one from California for $600-$800 typically.

This car will make the round trip at the speeds you outlined without charging at work much of the time, except the coldest days with the heater blasting. You'll want the backup J1772 plug at Quality Inn for days when it looks close (that's the ONLY place the the 6.6kW - 27amp onboard charger is an advantage over the regular 3.3kW - 16 amp charger).

But, I would count on charging at home with 240 volts. Don't play games with a NEMA 5-15R normal household outlet for commercial duty work... get a 240 volt dedicated outlet at home, preferably a NEMA L6-20R that won't accidentally become unplugged or be accidentally only partially plugged in. No fires and no burnt up plug or outlet.

The last piece to the puzzle is either buying a dedicated 12 amp or 16 amp (depending on whether you have 15 amp or 20 amp outlets on BOTH ends... home and work) charge cable that can either handle 120-240 volts, or just 240 volts. You can keep the stock cable as a spare (it's 120 volts / 12 amps), or pay about $300 to have it modified by EVSEupgrade for 100-240 volt capability at 12 amps. I would specify a NEMA L6-15P or L6-20P as appropriate for your outlets at home/work. Obviously, that will prevent needing adaptors.

That's it!

1) Get dedicated 240 volt outlets at both work and home. Get it in writing at work ($200 max for home outlet)
2) Get a 240 volt portable charge cable or modify your stock cable ($300-$900)
3) Pay less than $300 per month ($10k over 3 years) to lease a new car for 3 years, then $9.1k to buy it forever after 3 years
4) Make friends at Quality Inn hotel, should you ever need them as a backup
 
TonyWilliams said:
From Show Low, AZ to the Hospital, there is one J1772 outlet at:

Quality Inn, 458 E White Mountain Blvd., Pinetop, AZ 85935

https://api.plugshare.com/view/location/79860

I would consider this an "emergency" stop only.

If the hospital will let you charge, obviously any LEAF can do the job. Yes, it's great to hedge your bets with a "better" LEAF with faster charging, bigger battery, more efficient cabin heater, etc, but it's just NOT required to do this drive.

One thing I would require is that a dedicated charging spot with 240 volt service be written into the contract. They can EASILY do that with a dedicated 120 volt outlet, simply by using the existing wiring. Just swap the single pole 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker to a 2 pole 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker (this normally just pop in, and typically cost $10). Then, just move the white "neutral" wire to Line 2 in the breaker box. Wrap some black tape around the white wire at each end to indicate that it is now a 120 volt wire, and not a neutral.

Then, pop in a dedicated 240 wall outlet like an NEMA L6-15 (for a locking 15 amp circuit) or a NEMA L6-20R (for a locking 20 amp circuit).

Again, in writing, with 240 volts. It's cheap and easy for them to do (again, assuming a 120 volt dedicated 15 or 20 amps outlet is already waiting for you).

Then, I would LEASE a LEAF. The deal I got in California with zero negotiating was:

$33k for a 2017 LEAF-S with 30kWh battery and fast charging (you actually don't need the fast charging, but it won't hurt either)
$14k discount ($7500 IRS tax credit to Nissan plus $6500 discount from Nissan)
$10k total cost of LEAF for 36 months (about $277 per month)
$9.1k residual (what you are going to pay for the car to buy it in 3 years)
$0 down with good credit

$2500 California state rebate check that you won't get

If you can't find this locally in Phoenix, ship one from California for $600-$800 typically.

This car will make the round trip at the speeds you outlined without charging at work much of the time, except the coldest days with the heater blasting. You'll want the backup J1772 plug at Quality Inn for days when it looks close (that's the ONLY place the the 6.6kW - 27amp onboard charger is an advantage over the regular 3.3kW - 16 amp charger).

But, I would count on charging at home with 240 volts. Don't play games with a NEMA 5-15R normal household outlet for commercial duty work... get a 240 volt dedicated outlet at home, preferably a NEMA L6-20R that won't accidentally become unplugged or be accidentally only partially plugged in. No fires and no burnt up plug or outlet.

The last piece to the puzzle is either buying a dedicated 12 amp or 16 amp (depending on whether you have 15 amp or 20 amp outlets on BOTH ends... home and work) charge cable that can either handle 120-240 volts, or just 240 volts. You can keep the stock cable as a spare (it's 120 volts / 12 amps), or pay about $300 to have it modified by EVSEupgrade for 100-240 volt capability at 12 amps. I would specify a NEMA L6-15P or L6-20P as appropriate for your outlets at home/work. Obviously, that will prevent needing adaptors.

That's it!

1) Get dedicated 240 volt outlets at both work and home. Get it in writing at work ($200 max for home outlet)
2) Get a 240 volt portable charge cable or modify your stock cable ($300-$900)
3) Pay less than $300 per month ($10k over 3 years) to lease a new car for 3 years, then $9.1k to buy it forever after 3 years
4) Make friends at Quality Inn hotel, should you ever need them as a backup
That's one hell of a summation!
 
Another thing to remember about leasing: it can be the best path to buying an EV, especially a Leaf. If you don't have enough taxable income for the full $7500 Federal tax credit to apply, just lease a Leaf, and Nissan will apply it to the down payment, in full. Then when the lease ends, you can buy the car, possibly with a discount on the residual value. Even without that, Leaf residuals are low. If your needs have changed when the lease ends, you can turn the car in without having to take a huge loss reselling it.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Another thing to remember about leasing: it can be the best path to buying an EV, especially a Leaf. If you don't have enough taxable income for the full $7500 Federal tax credit to apply, just lease a Leaf, and Nissan will apply it to the down payment, in full. Then when the lease ends, you can buy the car, possibly with a discount on the residual value. Even without that, Leaf residuals are low. If your needs have changed when the lease ends, you can turn the car in without having to take a huge loss reselling it.

Yes, ABSOLUTELY lease the car. DO NOT BUY until the lease has ended. Even then, try to extend the lease for an additional 6-12 months.

Every day that the car is on lease is a day that YOU are not responsible for a car that may be a total (damaged) loss, stolen, or has a loss in value below the residual. Ensure that the residual goes down almost dollar for dollar with your extended lease.

Right now, the lease "money factor" is near zero. It's almost free money.

When the day comes to buy, negotiate with the Nissan leasing company to buy at a price below residual. Nissan is probably the only company that does this now, and I suspect they will be doing so well into the future.
 
TonyWilliams said:
From Show Low, AZ to the Hospital, there is one J1772 outlet at:

Quality Inn, 458 E White Mountain Blvd., Pinetop, AZ 85935

https://api.plugshare.com/view/location/79860

I would consider this an "emergency" stop only.

One thing I would require is that a dedicated charging spot with 240 volt service be written into the contract.
He works for the IHS. NOTHING is easy with the government, and any thoughts of making a personalized contract are fantasy. Just getting the facility manager to agree to charging in writing is likely to be difficult.

They can EASILY do that with a dedicated 120 volt outlet, simply by using the existing wiring. Just swap the single pole 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker to a 2 pole 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker (this normally just pop in, and typically cost $10). Then, just move the white "neutral" wire to Line 2 in the breaker box. Wrap some black tape around the white wire at each end to indicate that it is now a 120 volt wire, and not a neutral.
You forgot to add that this is against code, and a fire waiting to happen if the wires cannot support the breaker. Any EVSE worth it's weight in salt should refuse to charge on that circuit.

$33k for a 2017 LEAF-S with 30kWh battery and fast charging (you actually don't need the fast charging, but it won't hurt either)
$14k discount ($7500 IRS tax credit to Nissan plus $6500 discount from Nissan)
$10k total cost of LEAF for 36 months (about $277 per month)
$9.1k residual (what you are going to pay for the car to buy it in 3 years)
$0 down with good credit
The lease offer I mentioned above is $6000 + tax for three years
 
offtoSleep,
Did you buy one LEAF already ?
I'm curious why you are seemingly jumping to buy another so soon.
 
SageBrush said:
TonyWilliams said:
They can EASILY do that with a dedicated 120 volt outlet, simply by using the existing wiring. Just swap the single pole 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker to a 2 pole 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker (this normally just pop in, and typically cost $10). Then, just move the white "neutral" wire to Line 2 in the breaker box. Wrap some black tape around the white wire at each end to indicate that it is now a 120 volt wire, and not a neutral.
You forgot to add that this is against code, and a fire waiting to happen if the wires cannot support the breaker. Any EVSE worth it's weight in salt should refuse to charge on that circuit.
He stated 15a or 20a, of course if the wiring is 14 gauge(which it won't be in a commercial building, but just saying) then use a 15a breaker, if it's 12 gauge wire(which it will be) then a 12g breaker is code. Note he said "dedicated" and if this is the case there is no code reason to not do what he suggested, if OTH this was a shared circuit or somehow sharing the neutral(which wouldn't happen on a dedicated circuit) this would NOT work and would NOT be code. Again as Tony said, both ends of white would need to be wrapped with tape(I'd think red) so anyone looking at the ends wouldn't take the white wire for neutral.
 
jjeff said:
SageBrush said:
TonyWilliams said:
You forgot to add that this is against code, and a fire waiting to happen if the wires cannot support the breaker. Any EVSE worth it's weight in salt should refuse to charge on that circuit.
He stated 15a or 20a, of course if the wiring is 14 gauge(which it won't be in a commercial building, but just saying) then use a 15a breaker, if it's 12 gauge wire(which it will be) then a 12g breaker is code. Note he said "dedicated" and if this is the case there is no code reason to not do what he suggested, if OTH this was a shared circuit or somehow sharing the neutral(which wouldn't happen on a dedicated circuit) this would NOT work and would NOT be code. Again as Tony said, both ends of white would need to be wrapped with tape(I'd think red) so anyone looking at the ends wouldn't take the white wire for neutral.
You are not understanding.
No one locally will have a clue what tape on a wire means, what gauge wire is used, or whether it is a dedicated circuit.
The people who approve these matters at an IHS hospital are political appointees related to tribal connections. They are gross incompetents.

If ANY body should stick to code, it is here. Luckily, they only act in self-preservation so there is no way in hell they are going to agree to ad-hoc contraptions.
 
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